some patrons need temple cards back.

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W David Samuelsen said: Really, that is contrary to what other temples are doing. They returned completed or not to be picked up within an hour or 2 depending on the crowd in endowment and sealings. Mine were returned from sealings, no questions asked.

Could it be that the recorder's office misunderstood how it works?

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Amy Archibald said: Temple Presidencies have the latitude to make these kind of changes. They have also eliminated the stake card credenzas.

The Ogden temple is doing this as a preliminary step toward other changes coming next year. This is what they indicate on the notice at the recorder's office desk.

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Christopher R Schmink said: This is all part of a limited pilot in order to find "glitches" and correct them before the final version is put in place in all temples. The Church does pilot programs of all sorts of things before most of the Church knows about them for exactly the same reason: to work out the "bugs" in them before they roll out the programs to the entire Church. There is no huge need to try to compile a list of temples, because it's not just something temple presidents are exercising their latitude to do unilaterally on their own. We need to let the process work, trust the very top leadership of the Church in this (they're entirely aware of the details), and not worry about it. Where it creates individual difficulties (and they know it occasionally will - hence a limited pilot before Church-wide roll out), do what several others have already said in earlier responses to this and similar discussions: talk to the recorder or a member of the temple presidency to get it resolved. They will be VERY accommodating to individual needs, and help find an acceptable solution. Sometimes the principle of resistance to change gets in our own way unnecessarily. There is much wisdom behind all these changes.

And no, I'm not speaking with authority on this, but have had a rather in-depth discussion with a particular temple recorder who is fully aware of what's going on despite being in a temple far removed from Utah. That discussion came as a result of many years as an ordinance worker and a great relationship with that recorder, following a personal situation that created a real problem one day with getting cards quickly returned after an endowment so we could do a sealing. It came as a result of a misunderstanding by a shift coordinator who'd heard about the coming changes, and misinterpreted the guidance, creating a major problem for us one day. There were some big apologies, and they bent over backwards both to fix it for us, as well as do some very quick re-training on what's going on (this was much earlier this year when some of the initial changes were being announced, such as removal of the credenzas in temples that held huge numbers of waiting ordinance cards). Fear not - it's being followed and studied at the highest levels, and in the long run will be better (and yes - I was initially very dismayed when I heard what was happening). Just my unofficial 2¢.
-- Chris

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W David Samuelsen said: Bountiful removed credenzas after end of last session (Nov 30 last Saturday) and continue to make cards available for pickup after each session. Salt Lake never had credenzas for long time, cards continue to be picked up after each session, as well as hold the cards not picked up promptly from baptistry (I know this because I noticed I was missing 5 cards and they were at front desk for me to retrieve.) Jordan River removes theirs at end of Dec 7. cards still available for pick up after each session.

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Brett said: Christopher

Provided we CAN, request; and, get, the "Cards" back, that have been "Completed" (and, "Processed") after each "Ordinance" for Family cards; and, the single "Ordinance" for Couple cards, if we so desire - I do not have a problem/issue.

And, so that we CAN "Retain" the "Cards" when "Completed", if we so desire.

The non-return of the "Cards" was the problem/issue for many.

We have been advised that some of the temporal reasons that "Cards" were originally not going to be "Returned" were (1) to enable SECONDARY "Processing" to ensure NO "Card" is missed from being "Recorded"; (2) that some Members (particularly, USA) were concerned that they had to "Wait" too long for the "Return" of "Cards" due to be "Processing"; and, (3) that ONLY about 6% of "Cards" that were "Completed" are ever "Collected" (USA) - BUT, there are other options for SECONDARY "Processing"; and, the latter two (x2) reasons are NOT the case in many OTHER parts of the World.

Brett

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Christopher R Schmink said: Some of us old geezers remember when there was nothing but a rotary phone to dial our calls, and the resulting clicks. I'm not even sure clicks will be recognized in the modern systems, and teens and young adults can't even figure out how to place a call with a rotary-dialed phone! Some of us even resisted touch-tone phones, and hung on to our rotary phones for many years. While I was not told a time frame, I am told by one who's in a position to know the bigger picture that the time will come when our younger members will laugh at the antiquated idea of having to print out paper slips to accomplish ordinances - we will not be printing them at all in the not-to-distant future.

I was very dismayed initially, and asked some of the same questions, such as, "What about people who travel long distances in other less-developed countries, and who don't have (and cannot afford) modern technologies like smart phones?" I mentioned a few areas of the world specifically as part of those questions. I was assured that the Brethren are taking a long-term, world-wide view in this whole process, and all of those questions are very much in the mix of what is being taken into consideration. I've since made a roughly 175° turn on this (there's a little 5° of personal discomfort still there, keeping me from getting all the way around to 180° - good ol' human resistance to change). ;-) But I'm trusting the Brethren in this, and selfishly relieved it's not temples in my part of the country that are part of the pilot program. Otherwise, the way they're going about it makes perfect sense - plan it as best they can, implement it in a very small number of temples as part of the pilot, and see what needs to be tweaked before rollout worldwide.

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Nathan Twyman said: I just want to chime in to say that questioning and pointing out potential problems we see is not a bad thing. Providing feedback is not distrust or a lack of faith in leaders. Quite the opposite, obtaining such feedback is a key goal of pilot studies, and giving it is therefore an important way to sustain and support leaders.

When no one questions anything or provides any constructive criticism, it is far more difficult to improve.

Sometimes we avoid giving any criticism, for fear that doing so is somehow reflective of a lack of faith or disloyal or something along those lines. E.g., "So-and-so has spoken, and we should accept that." Such a view fails to consider that Ms. So-and-So is not necessarily closed to alternatives or suggestions and in fact may actually want constructive feedback. My experience has been that leaders inside and outside of the Church virtually always want constructive feedback, and are usually disappointed to learn that their subordinates simply suffered in silence instead of speaking up.

There is a point at which criticism crosses the line into antipathy. In my opinion, voicing concerns about a new policy in a forum designed to gather such feedback probably doesn't cross that line, unless the language used is designed to be hostile.

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Brett said: Christopher

I am one of the 'old geezers'.

Brett

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Christopher R Schmink said: Nathan, just to be clear, I fully agree with you. Questioning for understanding and providing constructive feedback for consideration is always appropriate. There is a significant difference between that vs. whining and complaining, particularly when people think they know better yet don't really have any background about the much bigger picture. I hope my post didn't appear to suggest that of anyone here, though I've seen a few posts in the past in a similar thread that were rather critical and short-sighted.
-- Chris

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Christopher R Schmink said: @Brett :-)

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ATP said: Cândido Lourenço Silveira Ázera: The goal of familysearch is to design it to avoid duplication. That goal at present has proven quite difficult to achieve for multiple reasons, the major one primarily tbeing unable to translate professional genealogical standards into computer programing language. It is achievable so don't despair. It is just a matter of when.

For my part, I hope it is soon, since my own family lines, in some cases for more than 10 generations, are replete with almost innumerable duplications, no sources, un-validating sources, individuals connected to wrong families, and many with multiple ordinances performed for the same individuals, not just a duplicate ordinance, that cleaning it up can be quite overwhelming at times.

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Kathryn Josephine Ware said: All temples didn't implement this new policy on December 1st. Cards are still being returned. I heard January or February to be rolled out to all temples. Just an FYI.
Kathryn

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W David Samuelsen said: Went to Bountiful Temple yesterday, they having already removed drawers Dec 1. They returned the ordinance cards, including those with all ordinances already done. I got 4 out of 4 back, one with all done.

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Kathryn Josephine Ware said: I'm really enjoying not getting my cards back. I keep the cards and send my helpers a PDF of the 6 ordinances that they're going to do. I paperclip the 6 cards with their name on a post-it. When I get the notice, I get them out of the envelope and move them to my folder for the next ordinance. I then send them another PDF. I can create a print out of the Temple card if I want it for a keepsake that looks just like the card. I'm even more organized than before because I don't worry about losing or forgetting who has what cards. I have more control and peace.

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Kathryn Josephine Ware said: They keep the cards and recheck them for missed recordings the next day. I think they've fixed that problem. You can just take care of it the next time you're already at the Temple and not make a special trip.I have over 400 people on my reserve list and I'm liking sending people a PDF of the cards they're going to do and keeping my copies in my folders. I'm even more organized now.

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Kathryn Josephine Ware said: What web browser are you using and what operating system?

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Bonnie Whitley said: While comparing names for merging it would be nice to be able to see the ordinances for each of the persons on that page. Then we could switch sides to keep the earliest done ordinances. Also I wish to keep my cards. Have had to show proof from my saved ordinance cards many times, Including my own mother’s ordinances which showed not complete when I did her work myself.

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Christopher R Schmink said: A couple of thoughts. What's important on the ordinances is that they get completed and recorded. If they are unfortunately done twice (or more), it then really doesn't matter which one is listed - the fact that it was at least done is what's important. Also, now that we get almost immediate feedback when ordinances are completed, it should be easy to check FamilySearch a day or two later to make sure the ordinance shows up there, and if not, call the temple where you did the ordinance and inform them, giving them the details of which ordinance was apparently not recorded. The ordinance card can then be located and re-scanned to properly record it. The article explaining this (and where to get those notifications) is at:
https://www.familysearch.org/help/sal...

Once the system that is being tested in several temples becomes Church-wide, errors in not properly recording ordinances will become very rare due to the new procedures being put in place (re-scanning all batches a 2nd time to assure they are properly and fully recorded, for example). Personally, I was very uncomfortable when I first learned that at some point in the future I would not be getting my cards back (once our temple comes on line with the new procedures), but I also have come to understand the reasons behind it and the steps they're taking to more fully assure that all ordinances are properly recorded. My "preferences" are far outweighed by the benefits (including accuracy) that come with the new system.

I can remember when we had to bring in family group sheets to the temples, either hand written or printed out in PAF (Personal Ancestral File). Eventually paper is going to go away and it will be all electronic.... ;-)

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W David Samuelsen said: The only paper that will not go away is the immediate family (meaning your own sealing to parents, etc)

Re-scanning only if there are computer glitches. I was there to witness several times including taking part as part of required two-witnesses method, the message will come up to tell you it is already scanned.

And I am still getting back my cards, at least at Bountiful and Jordan River Temples. Bountiful will put all ordinances up front to be picked up within 2 hours after completion of each ordinance, at the office for endowments and sealings. If not picked up, go into the drawer - hold for 7 days only. If not picked up in time, shredded. Bountiful's baptistry and initiatory - they are returned immediately at their specific desks.

Jordan River return baptistry immediately in their own office. I can't say for initiatory personally but heard from others the cards are returned and placed for pick up immediately in the lobby area immediately in front of Clothing rental, on 3 separate tables (each for initiatories, sealings, and endowments) I witnessed this method there last night. BUT I do not know if they do the 1 week hold or not.

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W David Samuelsen said: By the way the recorded ordinance messages are sent out within 15 minutes. I clocked the time it took to reach my home computer as well as checked my smart phone.

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Kathryn Josephine Ware said: I just had a blast creating a Temple card template to print and stamp for certain ancestors. I can frame it and hang it on the wall. You can email me if you need some created for your records. katware3098@gmail.com.

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Joyce Nelson said: It is very important that patrons get their cards back. It is a record of the work that has been completed. The cards contain several ordinances that need to be done so it is absolutely necessary to get the cards back. It would be helpful to have the date of the reservation printed on each card. I put the expiry date on my card so I can check the expiry date in order to be sure the work is done on the oldest printed card first. Please continue to return the cards. They are also used to follow up and check for completed work.