some patrons need temple cards back.

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W David Samuelsen said: AFAIK, when the cards are not picked up promptly, at least Jordan River and Bountiful (I haven't seen Salt Lake drawers yet) they get filed in stake drawers to be picked up within certain time limits. Jordan River, it is 2 weeks.

At Jordan River, they have rubber stamps for each stake specifically assigned to Jordan River Temple, stamp on the back of cards before distribution, NOT afterwards. I haven't checked Bountiful and Salt Lake thoroughly.

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Nathan Twyman said: Phil, the cards are currently the ultimate arbiter of truth. They contain specific information--not just a date the ordinance was complete, but identifying information about the person, including vitals and relationships. The card shows unequivocally that the ordinance was done for that specific person, regardless of what FSFT currently shows in its jumbled mess of merges and hijacked identities.

The confirmation notification is different--it shows only the name and date of ordinance. It shows the FSFT ID, but that ID's identity could have changed since printing and definitely could change in the future. It could be a similar name but a different person. Thus, the confirmation will not unequivocally show that this ordinance was complete.

I plead with you to provide vitals and family relationships in the confirmation messages.

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Emmanuella Christianne A. Koncurat Overstreet said: I have enjoyed the messages that have come on family search showing when the temple ordinances were done. But I still worry about some names that would be showing recorded and actually not being recorded.
I am a Clerk Support Helper and also a Ordinance worker at the Timpanogos temple and I understand the extra work that is being done with having to scan and stamp the cards within a reasonable time, and return them to the patrons.
So please give us an option whether we keep the cards or not.

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Brett said: Emmanuella

Exactly.

At least, give us the choice/option to request the RETURN of the "Cards" after each session.

"Free Agency"; and, all that ...

I would rather WAIT, for the "Completed" Card(s), to be processed; and, get it/them BACK.

Brett

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Emmanuella Christianne A. Koncurat Overstreet said: Thank you, how hard would that be?
I like that "Free Agency"
Emmanuella

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Phil Jeffrey said: You ask hard would it be maybe, pretty easy in Utah or Idaho as we have plenty of staff but that doesn't fit everywhere. There is no option to return the cards doing so would just place FS and the temples in the same situation we are now in. Keep in mind also this wasn't a whim that FS or the temples "just wanted to do" this was talked about for a long time and approved by the 1st Presidency and to change it would take the same level .Suggestion I have heard people use is print a double set at home before you come and manually mark the day you did the ordnance if you need a physical card. Mt Timp typically scans the cards and you often get a message they are done before you get home. If you don't get a message in a couple of days you can call the temples as the cards will be held for a short period of time. The temple system was enhanced with some additional checks and balances so you shouldn't have to have cards or call the temple going forward and its working very well in pilot temples.

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Tom Huber said: With agency comes accountability. The notion of "free" applies only that we have our agency to make the choice, not that agency is free. And in many cases, we really don't have the option to make a choice, which is where accountability comes in. It is an interesting doctrine that some call "free will", but there are times when we can make a choice, but once we act on that choice, the consequences drop into place.

Phil has plainly put it. This was a decision of the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. As with all practices established by Church leadership, the only option we have if we do not like that practice, is to talk with our local Priesthood leaders.

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Tom Huber said: My suggestion is to either print duplicate cards with those we take to the temple, or to print (as Jeff suggests) a pdf file, and print the cards from that file. For the most part, a pdf file is produced anyway, so keeping that in its own directory is certainly an option.

That way, when we return home, we can check to make sure the message we get shows that the ordinance(s) were completed.

I'm not sure what will be done with respect to taking a name to the temple and going through all the vicarious ordinances for that person in one trip. I would check with the temple as to how they plan to handle that. My thought is that they could use some special holder that goes back to the patron each time they complete an ordinance, with the ordinance checked by pencil. Then after the final ordinance is complete, all of the ordinances could be stamped and scanned.

That will take some training on the part of the staff, but I suspect that kind of patron temple use is rare and not common. Some of the remote temples may have special provisions that apply, especially for those who have to travel some distance to attend the temple.

We won't know fully what will apply and what won't until this is put into place in all temples.

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Emmanuella Christianne A. Koncurat Overstreet said: There are many kinds of temple attender. They are all good but have different needs.
There are those who come to the temple and take a temple name from the temple file. Very good
There are those who go to their family files and find a name that fs sent to them. Very good.
There are those who help family members or ward members with their family cards. Very good.
And there are those who do research and share their names with the temple and with other family members or ward members.
At this time of my life, I have time and desire and ability to do research of my ancestors, and attend the temple multiple time each week. When my family was young I could not do that.
Those of us who have the time and do research like to have our cards back.

But I will follow the prophet and do what ever the first Presidency wants me to do.

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Tom Huber said: It doesn't matter what we want. If a member has a problem accepting a new system, then we have been advised to take it up with our priesthood leadership.

The other option we have is to adapt. I stopped collecting temple cards a long time ago. As long as the vicarious ordinances have been completed, having a lot of temple cards is not needed.

The only reason for wanting a card back is if it wasn't properly recorded. The solution to that has already been presented by Phil Jeffery: "If you don't get a message in a couple of days you can call the temples as the cards will be held for a short period of time. The temple system was enhanced with some additional checks and balances so you shouldn't have to have cards or call the temple going forward and its working very well in pilot temples."

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Phil Jeffrey said: Another option I heard yesterday is before you go in take a digital copy on you phone.

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Phil Jeffrey said: Let me pose this question. I worked in what is called DQ (data Quality) they are the group that makes corrections, bad merges, pre 1500, missing ordinance data etc. I have done thousands of cases of missing ordinance dates. The question is how many of you have had to show a temple card for proof when the ordinance was done after the year 2000 ? Everyone of the ones I corrected were typically 1930-1950 time frame ?

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Nathan Twyman said: For me, a few times for post-1950 (mine have typically been in the 1970s-1980s range). But I am pretty sure never (to a FH consultant) for anything post-2000. But the reason it is never, is because I can typically look at the card myself and unmerge/adjust it in FSFT myself for recent problems. The card is an extremely helpful investigative tool because it has readily-available information that FSFT doesn't have.

I want to be clear--using the FSFT it is technically possible to dig through the change log from the record inception until now, and the change logs for all merged individuals, and after much effort find out whether a listed person's ordinances actually belong to them or to someone else. So cards are technically not needed as long as you are willing to put serious time into investigation for every individual with heavy edits in their years-long history.

But the card pairs vitals and relationships together with the ordinance date--it is a snapshot of that crucial point in time. Thus, with the card, it takes seconds rather than hours to confirm whether the FSFT-listed ordinances actually belong to that individual, or whether they are mis-assigned.

I keep cards not just for me, but for my children who will look at the system many years from now and ask, as I do for every single ancestor and relative: "Despite what FSFT says on its face, does that individual *actually* have their ordinance work done?" The physical cards will save them countless hours of research trying to answer that question, all over again, for every relative.

A short, small pilot is not likely to reveal this problem, as it usually takes years for a record to be muddied to the point of uncertainty in this way, and most users don't even know that the data in the "ordinances" tab could be wrong.

In my view, the best solution would be to expand the viewable data in the "ordinances" tab to show all ordinances (duplicate or otherwise) assigned that individual, together with the name, vitals, and family relationships that were present *at time of ordinance.* Then any user could decided at a glance if a listed ordinance really belongs to that person. This solution would be better than a physical card, as it would help every user discover the truth, not just the person who has the card.

Presuming that is off the table, the confirmation message could list not just a name (like it currently does), but vitals and family relationships like the card does. Then that confirmation message could serve the same purpose the card does, in terms of this future investigative need.

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Richard M. Smith said: I have shoeboxes full of completed cards, and have shared, or hope to share, these boxes with my grandchildren. Many records are added each month to FS. SOME might be siblings, wives,cousins, or parents of my ancestors represented by the card.
By using the PID, I am sure they will find "green temples" of those whose reserved ordinances have expired, or some "unshared" with the Temple.
I guess I will strart a PDF file of future "finds", to assure ALL possible relatives are found.

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Nathan Twyman said: Here's another thought--I've talked with many people who are still dismayed with the new FSFT system because it seems (on its face) to allow anyone to corrupt their carefully completed ordinance work. The cards have been a psychological anchor for them--I've even been asked to create a database of images for someone's cards. They want the record preserved even if FSFT doesn't show ordinances correctly in the future, due to its wiki-based nature.

Even if all it does is assuage concerns, this may be another reason to include vitals and family relationships in the confirmation messages.

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Nathan Twyman said: Well... we can also provide feedback on this forum.

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Tom Huber said: True, but in this case, I don't know if the feedback gets back to the appropriate ruling body (the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve). The best we can hope for in providing feed back on ordinance matters is that our thoughts are passed back "up the line." . . . hopefully.

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Phil Jeffrey said: So let me pose another question for a topic of discussion based off those answers above. I am not sure how many of your are old enough to remember the old family group sheets we use to submit to do the work. Lots of the same comments came when we discontinued them. I need proof, I want to give a copy of  them to my children, grandchildren etc. How many of you got pages of them and what did you do with them after a while ? I got lots of pages from my dad and since it all was recorded and really had no value other than sentimental they got tossed. My children saw no value in them and my grandchildren who are tech savvy say why are you keeping that old stuff it's recorded ? Hmmm good points. I took digital images of them and why I suggested you do that before you go into the temple. 

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Nathan Twyman said: I have the cards my parents gave me and I use them! So do they! I also use scanned paper submissions from the old IGI system. See my extensive response above to determine how they are used and why they save hundreds of hours of research. Please--you have experience with this--if you know of a better way of accomplishing the same task noted above, educate me!

The only answer I've ever gotten from FS is that it may often be less effort to redo all the ordinances than to dig through all the change logs to make sure the ordinances are accurately assigned. A card shortcuts that.

Again, I don't need the card! I do need a snapshot!

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Emmanuella Christianne A. Koncurat Overstreet said: I am old enough to remember all those sheets. I still have some of them (souvenir).

But in those days they used to send you a sheet with the name of the person, and date of birth, place of birth etc. and also the date of the ordinance done and the person who performed it.
When the computer came into being, I recopied those names into the computer. That is how I learned to use a computer. My mother who had done all that research and sent the names to Salt Lake, was too old to want to learn.

So i copied all of that into the old FS, and also into the PAF program. then I tossed the evidence. ( big mistake)
Later on when the old FS became what it is now. A great number of the ordinances dates did not make the transition.
So when I would call, they would say that there was a glitch in the transfer and that I needed to redo the ordinances.
That is why I need proof. (In case at some future point there is a glitch again). If when I pass on my family decides to throw the cards away, that will be their demise as mine was when I thru away the sheets.
I can say that familysearch has fixed some of the problems but I still have some names in my old PAF, that need to be fixed.

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Emmanuella Christianne A. Koncurat Overstreet said: I received on July 3rd an official church announcement, telling me that as of July 16, the Mt Timpanogos temple, Payson Temple, Provo City Center Temple and Provo Utah temple will NO LONGER return family name cards

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Tom Huber said: The collection (probably from the 4-generation program) is on line at https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/619....

That opens the H series. The error messages do not seem to mean anything, but should be resolved. I've hesitated reporting it because I don't want access to the old sheets to go away.

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W David Samuelsen said: Emmanuella, what does the announcement exactly say?

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Nathan Twyman said: Yes it is clear from that and from feedback from Phil that getting cards back will not be an option regardless. I've suggested changes to confirmation messages but I got the response I always get from FS when I point out problems. So I don't think that is going to happen either. Those who care about this are going to have to find workarounds and alternatives. Saving PDFs of the cards and taking the time to pair those with the confirmation messages is my current strategy.

Did you know that Ron Tanner hosts a periodic Facebook Live event to answer questions about FamilySearch? If you want expert ideas on alternatives to using cards, that might be a good place to ask.

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Phil Jeffrey said: Dear brothers and sisters, 

When taking the name of an ancestor to the temple, please be aware that after July 16 the Mount Timpanogos Utah, Payson Utah, Provo City Center, and Provo Utah Temples will no longer return family name cards. Instead, you will receive a message through FamilySearch Messages confirming that the ordinance has been completed. This change in procedure will reduce recording errors and eliminate time you spend waiting for cards to be returned to you. 

As part of the change, please print only the ordinances that you need for each visit to the temple. You can track the progress of your ancestors' ordinances on the FamilySearch website or Family Tree app by viewing your list of reserved ordinances. 

Thank you for serving in the house of the Lord. May the Lord bless you for your efforts! 

Sincerely, 

Temple and Family History Departments

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JT said: Oh, OK, so then here's why I will be boycotting the Utah Valley temples after next week:

Yesterday my wife and I did 12 sealing-to-parents (SP) at the Jordan River Temple. Though we got the messaging in FamilySearch showing they were completed, they are still showing as waiting to be performed in our Temple reservation (Printed) queue.

This is one example (from L8QB-VCD Leslie Jones) of how they were recorded in FamilySearch by the Temple department (about 20 hours ago), which explains why the above is happening:



So I need to get dressed and go visit the recorders office at the Jordan River Temple, and show them this card, and ask them to fix it:



But the same thing also happened (and is still happening) from the Logan temple on June 18th (2 1/2 weeks ago) on KLC2-4T5 Ephraim Boomer. But that's too far to drive just to show the card. And we could just do them over again, but the red mark would prevent that (so we could just print them again). But then it would probably record the same way (to unknown parents), which puts me into an infinite loop.

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JT said: Which brings up another topic I've been meaning to post:

Please get agreement with the temple department, to include printing of the PID of each parent on the temple cards. Because I've been watching sealers comparing the parent names on other cards, from which they have been assuming the parents are the same just because the names match.

But some of these names are merely a coincidence because of common names used (especially if the wife has a common maiden name or no maiden name). Whereas printing the actual PID for each parent (in small print below their names) could clarify. (As well as help the recorders know for a fact that these are indeed the correct parents to be recorded as linking to.)

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JT said: But I just tried to re-print the Leslie Jones sealing-to-Parents card, and I got a big red-over-pink error message saying: "! There was an error printing your card."

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JT said: So what about cards with blank ordinances still left to do? I assume those will be returned. Otherwise the Utah County patrons will have to reprint the same card when they come to do the next ordinance.

Won't it require MORE manpower for the temple clerks to decide which ones to return and which ones NOT to return?

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JT said: I should say "avoiding" rather than "boycotting".