some patrons need temple cards back.
Comments
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W David Samuelsen said: Christopher Schmink,
"Excellent answer! If the temple presidency is not available due to other duties within the temple, I believe the temple recorder could also be of significant help as well with special cases. "
It's the Recorder's office that does this. I should know because I made special arrangements for few couples coming in from out of state for Salt Lake Temple.0 -
Brett said: W David
What you have to remember is that, not ALL Temple around the World are set-up the same for Recording the Work when completed.
My local Temple, for example, DOES NOT have Scanners in the 'Sealers' Office. The processing of the "Sealings" is done in the General Office.
It sound like CARDS can be "Returned" and "Retained", if so desired; and, arranged (in advance) - this seems contrary to the premise of this post and other such posts of thecsame matter = the "Non-Return" of CARDS, after each "Ordinance" is completed.
Interesting.
Brett0 -
Tom Huber said: W. David, be careful about this. Unless a temple is part of the new process, it will be following the same process that it previously used. The Salt Lake Temple is such a temple, so do not think what it does represents what is done in those temples where the cards are not returned.
The following is as I understand the situation to exist. If I am incorrect, then please let a FamilySearch representative say that I'm incorrect:
1. There will be no rush to get the completed ordinance cards back to the patrons, which will go a long way to prevent cards from being missed.
2. All the cards will be (separately) audited which, from what I can determine, will include being scanned a second time.
3. The patron whose card it is will receive a message through Family Search that the ordinance has been completed. If no such message is received in a day or so, the patron needs to call the temple involved with the information so they can look through the cards, which will be retained by the temple for a period of time before being discarded (a month has been mentioned).
4. Temple staff will receive additional training with regard to this process.
5. The decision was made by the General Authorities of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which included the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve. And concerns about the process need to be addressed with your local priesthood leaders.
6. If there are special needs (and one has been brought up), this should be discussed with the temple president by the patron when the new process is already in place. We have been told that the needs will be accommodated in some way.0 -
W David Samuelsen said: Tom, I CALLED THOSE temples in Utah County earlier and got clear answers.
The number one problem is leaving the cards in the stake/family drawers long time and not acted upon in timely manner so these cards ARE THE ONES NOT being mailed or returned.
Each patron is responsible to carry in and carry out same day on each ordinance.
This is pretty much same method used in Salt Lake Temple for long time, too.
In about 2 weeks I will visit another temple and find out that temple's method of incomplete cards..0 -
Tom Huber said: That disagrees with what we have been told by Ron Tanner and other employees of FamilySearch. I'm sorry, but I do not believe that you have been accurately informed about the process. Or, and I believe this was the case, you called before the process was actually put into place in those Utah County Temples.
We have been repeatedly told that the problems involve missed card scans and the major purpose is to get the ordinances properly recorded, which involves an audit pass that otherwise is not done if the cards are returned to the patron shortly after the ordinance is completed.
I accept the information that we've been told, but if I'm wrong, then I want a FamilySearch employee to correct my understanding.0 -
Wallace Ellis Smith said: First, the Utah County Temples ARE NOT returning cards to patrons. This is a trial project. Second, I have talked with the clerk in charge of recording ordinances and have been told that I can request the cards that were reserved by my wife and she will see that I get them back. I will try that today and see if it in fact works. I have received many great responses to my question and thank you all for them. A few have been really unfair and very judgemental. It has been suggested that my asking this question is a sign of my lack of support for the first presidency and the leadership of the church. I have served as a Bishop, a counselor in a Bishopric, and on five high councils. The only position that I have not held in my life is a member of a stake presidency. My sweet and faithful wife has held every position in a ward that a woman can hold In addition she has served 11 years as a Stake RS. president, (Five as the president) and four years as a Stake Young woman's president. I love my church and support the first presidency. My question is not about
what has been done here in Utah, county, but is there a way for a member who has served in the church can fulfill a dying request by his wife of 53 years, in spite of this new trial project.. If I am unable to get the cards back today, I will do all the future work, until my wives cards are completed at one of the SLC temples. Again thank you all for your support. I hope none of you are ever have to face what I am now facing. Wally Smith0 -
Emmanuella Christianne A. Koncurat Overstreet said: I work at the Mount Timpanogos Temple. If you will go to the office desk and ask about your cards, they will return them. I was there last week and they gave the cards back after they had been recorded to a patron that wanted them. They are very accommodating. Just ask and ye shall receive.
Emmanuella Overstreet0 -
Brett said: Wallace
Many of us DO understand, both, WHAT you want; and, WHY you want it.
Many of us HOPE and PRAY that you can.
All the best.
Good Luck.
MAY THE LORD BLESS YOU IN THIS IMPORTANT WORK.
Brett
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W David Samuelsen said: Emmanuella, that is very accurate. the patrons bring in to get done and bring out after specific ordinances are done, not leaving the cards at temple for months. Advance arrangements have to be done.
The situtation with Wallace Smith's deceased wife is very different , having to do with deceased member's reservation hold. Wonderful if the cards have already been printed, the cards are safe but the patron must carry in and get whatever ordinances is done and carry out promptly after scanning is done. Scanning is required for every ordinance.
I have two cards for endowment done at Columbus Ohio Temple(I'm in Salt Lake City) last Saturday by two volunteers (or is it 1 volunteer doing 2 sessions?) and I don't expect these cards to be mailed to me because these cards were specifically printed for endownment only.0 -
Christopher R Schmink said: Wally Smith, don't waste your time with those that have not taken the time to read the history of your question. It's very clear what your motives are, the deep convictions and commitment you have with respect to supporting your wife's wishes, and I simply cannot detect any suggestion that you're not supporting the First Presidency and other senior leaders who've studied this and chosen to wisely institute a pilot program in order to FIND the glitches and iron them out before it's rolled out Church-wide. You're headed in the right direction in terms of motivation and the spirit of the work, and you asked a very legitimate question at the beginning. And you got many hopefully helpful answers from most, as you pointed out. I'd say again, talk with the recorder in whichever temple you go to, and I'd be very surprised if you aren't provided with a way of getting this all done without having to travel long distances to temples not currently part of the pilot, or having to wait two years for expiration of the reservation status on those ordinances. As an ordinance worker for many years, I have watched the kind compassion manifested by temple presidencies and their recorders many times. And the instructions to ordinance workers and staff are ALWAYS to put patrons first - they just simply need to know what those patrons' needs are and they'll do their best. Again, I believe (from experience) that you'll find the recorders to be quite helpful. There will always be those few having a bad day, or simply needing to find fault without having the full picture - just ignore them. ;-)
By the way - another poster correctly pointed out that no all temples do everything the same way, or have the same equipment in the same areas. We attend one of the older, somewhat smaller temples, and as of later this month the credenza will disappear that holds all of the cards that have been building up for years because of the people that did not get their cards back. But we do not have scanners in either the initiatory or sealing areas - only the front desk and baptistry. So slow-downs in recording DO occur particularly on heavy attendance days, or days when a lot of special things are going on (many living ordinances, for example), As a result, ordinance cards (especially endowments or sealings) may NOT be recorded in the short period a patron has between completing the ordinance and leaving the temple. If patrons printed full cards rather than just the ordinances they planned to complete that day, they could be disappointed by not getting those partially completed cards back immediately after finishing their temple work that day. I cannot count the number of times I've asked (or been asked) to carry special-situation ordinance cards up to the desk for recording, and then brought those cards back to the patron on an individual basis. As someone else said, "Ask and you shall receive." And if someone simply says, "We can't/don't do that anymore," elevate your request to a coordinator, the recorder, or the presidency. Some ordinance workers and staff are newer or less well trained than others - mistakes do happen. You're one of those cases that temple workers LOVE to help out!0 -
Vicki Scott said: Finally--a comment that makes sense instead of argumentative! Thank you. I've also worked in the temple and found all this to be true.0
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Christopher R Schmink said: W David Samuelsen, I suspect you could visit the 150+ operating temples and get differences as well as similarities in how each one handles these various situations, ~as well as~ differences between who you ask in any one of those temples. Everyone does the best they're able, and sometimes mistakes are made, somebody misses a training meeting in which a change is announced, or misses some of the details, etc. Reading through the entire history of the original question, ~including~ the hidden comments that can be expanded out for visibility, yields a rather good overall picture of a changing process and exactly why the Church wisely starts with a small-scale pilot program in anything significant, perhaps expands it a bit to further check for glitches, errors, etc., and only once they've got all that ironed out they expand it Church-wide. As huge as the Church is, with as many levels of ecclesiastical authority, employees, and people faithfully serving in a selfless volunteer capacity, communication will ~never~ be 100% accurate or complete, "attitudes" will crop up at times, and each one of us will be inconvenienced at times. But in the end, there will almost always be a way of resolving individual issues, and there are appropriate ways of doing that. Asking questions here for understanding is always appropriate, but resolution will always come through proper leadership channels, whether at an individual temple or up through ecclesiastical lines - this isn't the resolution area.0
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Wallace Ellis Smith said: I did talk with the office and I did get my wives cards back after I did the baptisms and confirmations. Thanks0
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Kathryn Josephine Ware said: There are five temples doing a pilot (practice) program of not returning the cards. (Mt. Timp, Provo, Provo Town Center, Monticello, Payson) At first, I didn't understand how I was going to keep everything straight without the card for the next step. They are keeping the cards so they can go through all the cards the next morning and double-check the recording was done properly the previous day. Then they shred the cards.This is because there would be many cards that had to be corrected because the scan didn't work or the card was accidentally skipped, etc. As with any pilot, there needs to be patience and understanding with the rough edges at first. They understand that the cards have been a means of organizing. They have provided a print station at each temple that you can scan your bar-code on your phone or login and print your cards. I personally, stop at the print station before I leave the temple. I print off the cards for the next step of the process for the sisters I did that morning. I do an Endowment and Initiatories 4 days a week. I have my cards with a post-it with all their names written on it. I login at the printing station. I go to my reserved list and find those individuals that I did that morning and print them out. I throw out my post-it and put the cards in my envelope under the appropriate category. I have gotten alerts inside family search and my phone every time. It is my understanding that this will be implemented at all temples eventually. It would be a busy and chaotic process to return the cards the next day to all the people that came the previous day. What's important is to adjust and decide on the best way to organize yourself in doing the ordinances. Helping our ancestors in this great service is the most important thing here. For those people that like to have the cards to remember when all the work is done, you can have cards that you write in the date and cards that go to the temple and aren't given back. I think that you would find that to be unnecessary after a while. I can log in and see all those names, faces, dates, gray squares indicating completion, and anything else. In this day and age of technology, surely we can adjust, be gracious, be nice and obey. Sometimes change is exciting and sometimes it is hard. Jesus Christ is the Savior and I'm so grateful for His sacrifice for me. I had to realize that the anger/mad feelings were not from Heavenly Father and I needed to have a better reaction to the change.
Kathryn Ware
Lehi, UT0 -
W David Samuelsen said: Kathryn,
the pilot will end Dec 1 and full roll out Dec 1. I had been informed by my ward temple coordinator.0 -
Christine said: All temples?0
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Cândido Lourenço Silveira Ázera said: I have mentioned this before. I don't have a problem the temple keeping the cards, my issue is with familytree/search. Familytree/search is a mess at times. Some people merged records and do other things that sometimes the ordinances done were gone. When I call family search about it, they say if I have the card(s) for proof that the ordinances were done and then they can reinstate the missing ordinances. But if I don't have the original card with the ordinances, even if I have the ordinances recorded on my RootsMagic program, they do not accept them. They say I have to do the ordinances over again. The program was designed to avoid duplication and they want me to do the ordinances again?! Doesn't seem right. I have sent feedback to family tree/search a suggestion to have a tab or an option on the individual page where it list the ordinances done/Status add another tab where I can click on it and download or save as the ordinances to my computer in a card format so I can save these ordinances so when they need the proof I have. So am I understanding this. If I bring a card to the temple to do of the ordinances, say baptism and confirmation, then the temple records them and they will not give me the card back so I can do in the same day or the next the rest of the ordinances?! I have to reprint the card?! If this is the case, do they realize the waisted paper and ink?! I don't know why they have to reinvent the wheel. instead to hasting the work, it seems they go in reverse.0
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Tom Huber said: Ordinance data is not lost. If you can take this to its own discussion thread a provide the FamilySearch ID of a merged record that has the wrong dates, there are a number of us who can chase down why the dates are not current.0
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Kathryn Josephine Ware said: Awesome! I've gotten used to it now and am excited to be able to share cards with family and have more control of the next ordinance being done in a timely fashion.
Thanks for the info David, I was wondering when it was going to roll out.
Kathryn0 -
Kathryn Josephine Ware said: Yes, all temples will be doing it this way. You'll do great!0
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Kathryn Josephine Ware said: I also give cards to 2 young people to do the male and female Baptisms & Confirmations. I have a card that I write down all the names that I have given them. They've gone to the Draper temple with names and to the Mt. Timp temple. I've gotta say, it's easier when they go to Mt. Timp temple because they don't get the cards back. I get notified that they've been done and I take my card of names and go into my reserved list. I will print those cards at home for the initiatories and I'm all set. When they go to the Draper temple, I have to wait for them to return the cards to me so I can put them in the proper spot in my envelope for initiatories. I've adjusted and I know you can too. It's just different and will take getting used to.
Your friend, Kathryn0 -
Brett said: That is very SAD news.0
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Brett said: That is very SAD news.0
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W David Samuelsen said: Candido, you can get your cards back if you let them know, you bring in yourself and you bring them out yourself.
They didn't reinvent the wheel. The wheel got speedy once baptism is done.
I know because when I finished over 1,800 baptisms this year, I decided to do temple share. Boy I was flooded with completed ordinances just a month later and still coming in by way of familysearch message system.
It was very interesting to see which names get snapped by way of ordinance ready app, to the point I can pinpoint which cousins are doing in which temple.
The ONLY problem is not able to find who those who are doing family ordinances outside of my assigned temple - Salt Lake because the ordinances were showing up in Madrid, Gilbert, Portland, Seattle, Jordan River, Mount Timp, Payson, Idaho Falls. Biggest mystery is Madrid Spain. Who is that cousin over in Europe?0 -
Christine said: How can you tell they are done with ordinance ready?0
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Cândido Lourenço Silveira Ázera said: Well go to know I can still have my cards back. if I ask the temple. As far the ordinances being done in the Madrid temple, I also had some done there, and the only thing I can say is that when I shared the ordinances with the temple system, most likely the youth there did the baptisms and confirmations.0
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W David Samuelsen said: Christine. My stake is in Salt Lake Temple district. Ordinance Ready app is used to do at least 3 different levels. First is your own reserved name temple list, then shared names you sent to temple (your assigned Temple), then general.
When you get FamilySearch messaging report and you find there are ones done OUTSIDE of your assigned Temple, they were picked up by your cousins.
Last 8 days, nearly all initiatories were done at Salt Lake Temple so I know they were there, except a few were plucked and done in other temples.Madrid Temple was one with large number of sealings and they were all connected and concentrated in one of my family lines pointing to a specific Baltes descendant doing it because the names plucked are all related to that descendant.
The ordinance ready app is very telltale. The only wish is that I find out who did that and work with that distant German cousin.0 -
Brett said: All
I just came across an interesting "Knowledge Article" in the "Help" of "FamilySearch", that I had not see before, when search for other information ...
Do temples still return family name cards?
https://www.familysearch.org/ask/sale...
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Quote(s):
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Several temples no longer return family name cards to you after you do the ordinances. Instead, you receive a message through FamilySearch Messaging, confirming that the ordinance was completed and recorded.
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Participating temples
The following temples follow this new procedure:
Monticello Utah Temple
Mount Timpanogos Utah Temple
Oakland California Temple
Payson Utah Temple
Provo City Center Temple
Provo Utah Temple
Raleigh North Carolina Temple
Baton Rouge Louisiana Temple
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Frequently asked questions
[Q] What if I am doing temple work for a close relative and want the family name card returned to me?
[A] If you want a family name card returned to you, please speak with a member of the temple office staff.
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Brett0 -
Amy Archibald said: The Ogden Utah Temple is not returning completed ordinance cards.
Cards with ordinances that still need to be done will be returned to the patron.0 -
Brett said: Amy
'Thank You' for that.
Another "Temple" to add to the above List.
As has been previously discussed in the Forum, it would be good if "Knowledge Articles could be, both, 'Dated'; and, regularly/continually 'Revised'/'Up-Dated'; but, most of the regular paticipants in this Forum will be aware that is unlikely to happen any time soon due to the limited resources available to "FamilySearch".
Brett0
This discussion has been closed.