Historical Records added to Living Person

LegacyUser

Harry said: It's unfortunate not to be able to add Historical Records (example birth or marriage records) to Living People while maintaining the privacy of a Living Person.

With the increasing amount of records available to be added to the Family Tree. It would be awesome to have the opportunity to add the records to living people while maintaining their privacy.

LegacyUser

Amy Archibald said: You can add records to living people and still maintain the privacy. I do it all the time. I'm the only one that can see what is attached to those people in my private space. If you look at the record I have attached to living people, you will not see that it is attached to them.

LegacyUser

Harry said: Thanks for your comment. I called the Help Center support before posting the idea. I told Help Center I could not find any information about if you attach a Historical Record like a birth or marriage record to a Living Person would the Privacy still be maintained.

Help Center asked their supervisor. They informed me that once a Historical Record is added to a Living Person. The Living Person with the added Historical Record is no longer Private. The Historical Record when searched can be viewed associated with the Living Person.

I asked them the same as you posted above. If I add a Historical Record to a Living Person, will it be seen attached or not. Their reply was, it still is not private.

I asked about adding this as a suggestion to Family Tree. they told me I could post the request here on Feedback.

LegacyUser

Harry said: In addition, the help center informed me, that it is not easy to see the Living Person added to a historical record. You have to know where to look. But it is possible.

LegacyUser

Amy Archibald said: How many living people do I have this obituary attached to?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/619...

LegacyUser

Brett said: Harry

That is news to many of us ...

And, indeed that is disturbing and concerning news ...

Since we have had the ability to attached "Sources" (ie. "Historical Records", as you say) to the "Living" individuals/persons in our "Private Spaces" in "Family Tree" of "FamilySearch", many of us have added such "Sources" to the "Living" individuals/persons in our "Private Spaces".

Did 'Support' advise you HOW it is possible for OTHERS to see the "Living" individuals/persons in our "Private Spaces" in "Family Tree" of "FamilySearch" where "Sources" have been attached?

Did 'Support' reference any "Knowledge Article" in "FamilySearch" on the aforementioned matter?

Better still, WHY is this possible?

We HAVE been advised by "FamilySearch" that "Memories" that we add to "Living" individuals/persons in our "Private Spaces" in "Family Tree" of "FamilySearch" cannot be guaranteed to be "Private" (for a number of 'Reasons').

But, I have seen NOTHING (nor, heard anything) from "FamilySearch" to the effect that it is possible for OTHERS to see the "Living" individuals/persons in our "Private Spaces" in "Family Tree" of "FamilySearch" where "Sources" have been attached!

This is DISTURBING and CONCERNING ...

Brett

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LegacyUser

joe martel said: 1. A living Person can only be seen by the user that created them. No other User can see that PID. Period.
2. A memory is viewable by any User or person on the internet. It may be hard to find, but the memory is viewable. It doesn't matter who that Memory is tagged to. 
3. A Source is viewable by any User. It doesn't matter who or what relationship it is attached to.

If you go to a Memory or Source that is attached/tagged to one of your Living Persons only you can see that attach/tag.
If you go to a Memory or Source that is attached/tagged to a deceased Person you and any user can see that attach/tag.
(edited for clarity)

LegacyUser

Brett said: Joe

'Yes', we UNDERSTAND all that.

But ...
That said ...

BECAUSE we have attached the "Source" to a "Living" individual/person; then, it appears that 'Support' (well, a 'Supervisor' in 'Support') is advising Users/Patrons that ... "The Living Person with the added Historical Record is no longer Private." ...

This implication being that "Living" individuals/persons in our "Private Spaces" in "Family Tree" of "FamilySearch" are NO LONGER "Private" when we attach "Sources" to them?

IS THAT FACT OR NOT?

Brett

.

LegacyUser

Jordi Kloosterboer said: same

LegacyUser

Tom Huber said: Brett, first level support and the supervisors are incorrect. Joe Martel understands the situation and is correct. The source is published and in the public view. If the source is attached to living the source is still visible but the profile of the living person to which the source is attached is visible only to the user who created that profile.

LegacyUser

Brett said: Tom

As I clearly indicated, in regarding to what 'Joe' has stated, 'Yes', we UNDERSTAND all that - that is NOT the problem/issue.

But, 'Joe' has not out-rightly 'debunk' that what 'Support' (well, a 'Supervisor' in 'Support') is advising/implying ... that when we have attached a "Source" to a "Living" individual/person; then, ... "The Living Person with the added Historical Record is no longer Private." - that is the concern.

I would like a clear advice or statement to the fact from "FamilySearch" of whether or not; IF; and WHEN, we have attached a "Source" to a "Living" individual/person; THEN, is or is not ... "The Living Person with the added Historical Record is no longer Private.".

Because if the latter is the case, that when we have attached a "Source" to a "Living" individual/person; then, ... "The Living Person with the added Historical Record is no longer Private."; THEN, far as I am aware, we have NOT been advised/informed of such.

Remember the last part of 'Harry's' third response ... "You have to know where to look. But it is possible."

Those latter two sentences certainly seem to apply to "Memories" added to the "Living" individuals/persons in our "Private Spaces" in "Family Tree" of "FamilySearch"; but, I was NOT aware that is MAY apply to "Sources" as well.

IF 'Support' is advising INCORRECTLY; then, that needs to be 'nipped in the bud', sooner rather than later.

It is quite possible that the "Context" got lost / confused in conveyance at the 'Support' level (ie. 'Supervisor' to underling); but, I am not so sure; as, the ORIGINAL matter seem to have been about "Sources"; and, NOT, "Memories".

It is quite possible that the "Context" was about "Sources" that are 'Obituaries'; where, we all know that there could most possibly be "Living" individuals/persons included in those "Sources". If that is the case; then, 'Yes', there are "Living" individuals/persons included in those "Public" Records (ie. "Sources"); but, that DOES NOT mean that the "Living" individuals/persons in our "Private Spaces" in "Family Tree" of "FamilySearch" are exposed by the "Source" being attached to those "Living" individuals/persons in our "Private Spaces" - that is a different matter. Perhaps, that is the mix up!

The implication that when we have attached a "Source" to a "Living" individual/person; then, ... "The Living Person with the added Historical Record is no longer Private.", needs to be out-rightly 'debunk' or not.

That is the matter I am raising.

Brett

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LegacyUser

ATP said: same

LegacyUser

Paul said: This issue is no more complicated than Harry having been given incorrect advice by Support. Fine, if an official FamilySearch representative is willing to confirm that on this forum, otherwise we should accept the position described / illustrated by Joe, Tom & Amy.

I have always had certain reservations about the possibility of details / sources of the living not being 100% secure (through a bug, or someone being able to hack my account, perhaps), which is partly why I very rarely add them to Family Tree (with or without sources).

As stated in the Family Tree Guide (page 40):

"Although Family Tree is primarily a tool for recording information about deceased ancestors, you sometimes also need to add living people to Family Tree."

If we have worries about the privacy of living relatives, keeping their detailed records should be confined to our personal software. And if we are seriously worried about the issue, I would say don't add them to Family Tree at all.

LegacyUser

joe martel said: In the course of normal conversation we often make implications, and jumps in context, that may be said incorrectly or lead the listener to assume something not intended. Even written communication has this problem - it's all about how we each interpret what we say and what we hear. 

Harry was asked to post the question here on feedback and you can read my response above. In summary, no other user can see your Living PID, regardless of memories or sources tagged or attached to that Living Person.

LegacyUser

gasmodels said: I agree with Joe and cannot tell whether support made an error or there was mis-communication. There is some inference that could be made from attached sources. If you had a birth record source that had a living child and deceased parents that was attached to all three records. On encountering the source attached to the parents and seeing that it was not attached to a child you could infer that those parents had a child by the name on the record and you would know the birth date of the child. While that is not usually sufficient to identify a living person (unless the name is very unique) , it would be sufficient information to concern some individuals. I like Paul above have not entered a significant number of living persons in the tree because of the issues associated with living records ever being visible.

LegacyUser

Tom Huber said: As I said, Joe is correct. Read his response below.

At lot of it is in the interpretation of what is being said or written. There is an old Normal Rockwell Saturday Evening Post about something that was passed on from person to person via telephone until it got back to the person who first passed on the information: It had completely changed.

I often avoid reading political opinions because they represent a particular point of view. The same with more than one poll I've received in the mail where the questions were carefully worded to get the desired response. I throw those in the trash as they are a waste of my time.

Joe represents as close as we can come to accurately reporting the situation. While he is offering his opinion, he admits when he didn't understand the situation.

We really don't know what support, including the supervisor, passed on to the user, so there may or may not be something to debunk.

Making an issue out of what amounts to hearsay is something we should not do. Joe represents an accurate response. I double-checked with living persons in my private space and logging in with my wife's credentials, I could not see them -or- use the source linker to determine if there was a record, even when the record indicated the name was attached. I did the same thing with Amy's linked record and could not determine, beyond that which was published in the obituary, any additional information regarding the linked records attributable to someone in the massive tree.

Conclusion -- Joe is correct.
Speculation -- Support needs to have the information "nipped in the bud."

LegacyUser

Harry said: Thanks to everyone taking the time to comment. Now the answer is clear.

LegacyUser

Robert Wren said: BUT, until FamilySearch makes some modification to the 'after death' situation, all of those sources dutifully added to those "Living" persons, will 'forever' have them attached, with no one able to see them as attachment to the person.

That is, unless the creator of the PID is still around to show that person as deceased.

And, many of the "users" of this site, MAY have them automatically deleted upon their demise.

"What are sources in Family Tree?
Information
You can add sources to both living and deceased people in Family Tree.

A source is a historical record, such as a picture, journal, Bible, document, or other item that contains evidence about your family history. Sources are critical to the genealogical process for documentation and discovery. In Family Tree, you can attach sources to people, couple relationships, and parent-child relationships."

Or, perhaps, I missed a change somewhere.

As Joe mentioned, this is likely a miscommunication/misunderstanding:

https://www.familysearch.org/help/sal...

"Only you will be able to see the records of the living people you add, but keep in mind that the memories attached to them are potentially viewable by anyone, whether or not they are registered users."
. . .
"These duplicate records can be merged once someone reports the individual as deceased and provides the appropriate documentation."

Of course, none of the help articles are dated, so no one knows how old, or current, the information is!

LegacyUser

Paul said: Robert's comments have set me thinking as to what other users can see when they click on a source that has been attached to a living person.

Take the search page at https://www.familysearch.org/search/r....

Harry Lauder is a living person to whom I have attached birth registration, marriage registration and 1911 census sources. When I click on the icons on the right, his summary card (is that the correct term?) appears and I can go straight to his record.

I would be grateful if another user could tell me what they see when they perform the same action. Or do others not see the same page / URL as me? If so, I assume they can at least see the source has been attached to somebody - if not, can it be attached to another / multiple individuals?

This would partly address the privacy of living persons issue (i.e. what other users see compared to my view / access to a living person from the Search page).

Of course this also raises the issue of whether it is a good idea to be able to attach sources to living persons. Firstly, can another user (say a close relative of mine) attach it to THEIR version of (say) Harry Lauder? Also, say it should have been attached to an ID for a deceased person - how is another user going to deal with this situation if they cannot detach it from my "living" Harry Lauder?

Again, I would be grateful if someone could explain how the whole situation works out in relation to sources attached to the living.

(BTW - I'm pretty sure Harry is deceased, as he was born in 1911, but cannot be sure I have identified his death record, so thought I'd leave him as "living" for now.)

LegacyUser

Jeff Wiseman said: Paul,

Just to satisfy myself (inquiring minds want to know, you know?) I played with this a bit.

One point that Joe didn't actually spell out in his list of characteristics is that if a source is attached to a living person in SOMEONE ELSE'S private space, you do NOT see that attachment. Although you can always see the source, there is nothing there to even give you a clue that it is attached to a record in someone else's private space.

The fact is that the same source can be attached (intentionally) to multiple PID records. In fact, if 5 different people have a record for the same living relative in their private space, and they have all attached the same source to their record, everyone will see that source attached to only ONE person, i.e., the living person record in their own private space. The other 4 attachments are there, but are invisible and will not show up in the source information or in the source linker.

Basically, a source attachment (i.e., the "thing" that connects a PID record to a Source) is ALSO included within a person's private space when it is attaching one of their living persons to a source. In other words BOTH the living person record as well as the "attachment thing" are totally invisible to all others.

Note this is not the same for memories as all attachments for memories seem to be in the public domain at present

LegacyUser

Paul said: Jeff

Thank you for the clarification. As I do not know anybody personally who has a FamilySearch account I was relying on another forum participant to help me out on this!

From what you say, other users can also attach the sources I have attached to a living person to a deceased person, too. In this case, I assume the deceased person's ID would show against the icon.

I had not really thought too much about the whole "private space" concept, having not inputted anyone of my parents' generation (living or deceased) and not added any detail against my own ID - created by FamilySearch of course, when I opened my account.

Thanks to your comments I can see things a little more clearly now - well, a LOT more clearly, in fact!

I still think it a little strange how records for the living are treated. We weren't able to add sources, now we can. Similarly, we weren't able to add the living to our watch lists, then we could, now we can't again! Because I added Harry Lauder in the period that we could attach them to our watch lists, I can still easily reach his record from there by typing "living" into the "Filter" box. I see no reason that ability could not be made available again, especially as it is frequently requested by users.

LegacyUser

Brett said: All

Interesting ...

As an aside ...

I have always thought (and, still do) that even when one attaches a "Source" to a "Living" individual/person in "Family Tree" of "FamilySearch" (and, I was doing that, through a 'workaround', long before "FamilySearch" gave us the ability to), that despite such attachment, the "Living" individual/person in "Family Tree" of "FamilySearch" is still "Private", cannot be seen/accessed, despite the "Source" being attached.

This of course is contrary to "Memories", that may not be so "Private" and expose "Living" individuals/persons; as has been suggested/advised.

One of the reasons that I have thought such (and, still do) is thus ...

Add a "Source" to an individual/person (their "Sources" 'Tab'); and, save in one's "Source Box" - all well and good.

In particular, in the above, a MARRIAGE "Source", for example ...

Add/Append something extra/simple to the "Title" of that MARRIAGE "Source", either, from/in (i) the "Source" 'Tab' of the individual/person; OR, (ii) the "Source Box", makes no difference ...

That "Title" of the "Sources" get amended; and, that "Change" appears in, BOTH, (i) the "Source" 'Tab' of the individual/person; OR, (ii) the "Source Box" - all well and good.

If one later goes back and attaches that ORIGINAL "Source" (Amended "Title") to a NEW or additional individual/person (or, "Couple" Relationship), FROM the "Source Box"; THEN, that ORIGINAL "Source" (Amended "Title") is the way it appears in the (i) the "Source" 'Tab' of the original individual/person; OR, (ii) "Couple" Relationship, if so attached, for NEW or additional individual/person (or, "Couple" Relationship) - all well and good.

Now ...
Here is 'the kicker' ...

If for whatever reason, one CANNOT find the ORIGINAL "Source" (Amended "Title") in one's "Source Box" (due to its limited functionality); and, then, goes and 'Searches' and 'Finds' the "Source" again in the 'run of the mill'; and, attaches such; THEN, one finishes up attaching a NEW (ie. pristine) version of that [ORIGINAL] "Source" [WITHOUT the amended "Title" that is in one's "Source Box"], that is TOTALLY independent of/to the "Source" that attached elsewhere (individual/person; "Couple" Relationship; or "Source Box"), to either the "Living" or the "Dead".

So, I feel that, "Sources" are definitely independent entities, despite how often and to whom/what they are attached; and, DO NOT show to OTHER Users/Patrons if they are attached to a "Living" individual/person in the "Private Spaces" of a particular User/Patron (ie. oneself). And, I have taken a reasonably good look through things.

I could be wrong; and, stand corrected if I am.

I am not certain whether or not this 'tidbit' helps here; but, I just though I would 'throw it in the ring' ...

Brett

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LegacyUser

joe martel said: The Source is independent and can stand alone without being attached, and is not part of a private space - all Sources are public.

When you see a Source title from the attached Person or Relationship or your SourceBox you are seeing the title of that Source via a link to that Source. When you are in the View/Edit Source, you are looking at the actual Source, not via the attach link. So  when you copied that Source, you created a new Source and it's title and other contents, which is now different from the original Source.

LegacyUser

Brett said: Joe

'Thank You'.

First paragraph, good to know.

Sort of 'debunks' what 'Harry' was advised by 'Support' - which seemed wrong/suspect.

Second paragraph, query regarding terminology here, I DID NOT / DO NOT "Copy" (as you reference) those "Sources" to my "Source Box", I "Save" those "Sources" to my "Source Box" at the (same) time they are being attached to the individual's/person's "Sources" 'Tab'. As far as I was aware, there is a significant DIFFERENCE to, "Save"; as opposed, "Copy". I wonder if that makes a slight difference to that paragraph.

Brett

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LegacyUser

Paul said: Jeff

I wrote above, "From what you say, other users can also attach the sources I have attached to a living person to a deceased person". From your comments, I assume they can do this directly from the Search page. However, following Brett's comments (below) I added one of Harry Lauder's sources to my Source Box and, of course, found I was then able to add this to a deceased person.

Always workarounds, even if a task can't be completed more directly!

LegacyUser

Adrian Bruce said: Re "it is not easy to see the Living Person added to a historical record. You have to know where to look. But it is possible"

I wonder if this is a misinterpretation of the fact that (some people in) Support will always be able to find any data in the system. That has to be possible otherwise they couldn't support the system. The key is controlling that access.

LegacyUser

Paul said: Yes, I wonder if Joe would be prepared to clarify his statement above that, "no other user can see your Living PID". I assume he means no other user, except certain FamilySearch employees who sign-in with an administrator username.

In which case perhaps the supervisor meant, "But it is possible IF....".

LegacyUser

Adrian Bruce said: I'm not sure that the Supervisor really meant to say that, not least because anyone who understands that will tend to be a bit careful in their words. However, I do wonder, as I said, whether someone half understands.

LegacyUser

Adrian Bruce said: Incidentally, there is every possiblity that such access will be restricted tighter than "an administrator username". It's virtually impossible for me to reverse engineer the FS security rules, except to say that they are probably complex. Justifiably.

LegacyUser

gasmodels said: Just a quick clarification - support can see living people in your private space if you provide them the helper information for your account. Actually any LDS user can use that helper information to see your account. When a case is created there is a box to check if you want to give access to the support person which allows them to essentially sign in as you. However, unless you give that permission they do not have your information and therefore cannot look. There are advanced support levels where individuals can see but these are only used by very limited number of individuals usually looking as specific data issues. and one last thing once a user is marked deceased, their helper information no longer works.