Addable Christening witnesses/godparents, under the Christening line
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Roger Moritz said: Request to the Devs.: would like to add slots under baptism line for Witnesses/Godparents etc. as a coded person like on the Gallery items, perhaps a miniaturized indented version of it so that they would be visible but not intrusive.
Thanks Devs,
Roger
Thanks Devs,
Roger
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Brett said: Roger
This might only be me; but, I am sorry to disagree.
The Witnesses/Godparents to a Christening/Baptism should NOT appear under Christening Field in the Vitals Section.
But, if a User/Patrons so desires to include the Witnesses/Godparents for a Christening/Baptism; then, they COULD be easily added in the Other Information Section as a Custom Event.
Just my thoughts.
Brett
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Adrian Bruce said: I think there are 2 quite different and alternative requirements - and I'm not sure which Roger is suggesting:
1. The ability to record the names of witnesses / godparents / etc just as text against the appropriate events.
or...
2. The ability to link the FamilyTree profiles of witnesses / godparents / etc to the appropriate events in which they play a part. The link should be navigable in both directions.
Option 1 is effectively just dumb text. Option 2 would allow a dynamic linking from a witness's profile to the event (belonging to another profile) that they played a part in or vice versa.
There is, I guess, a 3rd option:
3. The ability to associate 2 profiles one with another, with the associated link having some sort of name / description. The association to be at the level of the profile, not events belonging to the profile.
Option 1 would be possible if FS FamilyTree followed the standard GEDCOM model of allowing text notes against any event / fact. Something that FS seems to have studiously ignored for some reason...
Option 3 would be possible if FS FamilyTree followed the standard GEDCOM model of what are known as Associations. Thus an Association might exist between profiles A and B effectively recording that A is a godparent of B and B is a godchild of A (both links are necessary because the characteristics aren't the same in both directions). (I might add that my gut feeling is that Associations are not well supported "out there").
Option 2 is present in a number of family history programs, often referred to as "Witnesses". (It's often called "Witnesses" in the software but the facility can be used to record all sorts of roles which aren't called "witness" in real life.) For instance, the Christening Event for person A can link to persons B and C who had some sort of role in the event - classically this would be the god-parents. Alternatively, the Marriage Event for persons A & B can link to persons C and D who had some sort of role in the event - classically this would be the witnesses to the marriage or the best-man at the ceremony, etc, etc.
As I said - I'm not totally sure which option is closest to what Roger was thinking...0 -
Roger Moritz said: I want navigable names of people that already exist in family tree, just as when you tag a photo with names, the little list that forms upper right. I would like a little list, miniaturized indented under Christening.
Many of these people are closely related and add to the story of the page.
Just like on this photo of a baptism, I've tagged witnesses
https://www.familysearch.org/photos/a...0 -
Brett said: Roger
That is what I thought/suspected you wanted.
But, as I have already indicated, I am sorry to disagree.
The Witnesses/Godparents to a Christening/Baptism should NOT appear under Christening Field in the Vitals Section; even, in a miniaturized indented format.
But, also as I have already indicated, if a User/Patrons so desires to include the Witnesses/Godparents for a Christening/Baptism; then, they COULD be easily added in the Other Information Section as a Custom Event.
Just my thoughts.
Brett
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Adrian Bruce said: Thanks Roger - closest to my Option 2, I believe.0
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Adrian Bruce said: Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on this. To me, the story of who the godparents are, belongs to the Christening / Baptism event - splitting it off will mean that anyone looking at the details of the Christening / Baptism will not see the full story, but must look elsewhere. Why would they? This seems perverse.
What must happen if FS were to implement this, would be a careful bit of design of the visual aspect. Right now the Vital Events (all 4 plus 1 name?) form a compact summary display - inserting live links to people with other roles in this event would probably take up way too much space. Therefore one approach might be a single icon against that event that denotes there is some more story to be found for this event and provides a link to that extra stuff, such as godparents, witnesses, extra notes etc.0 -
Gordon Collett said: In at east two or three recent live Q&A sessions, Ron Tanner has mentioned that he would like to see Family Tree include extended FAN groups, FAN stands for Family, Associates, Neighbors. (see: https://lisalouisecooke.com/2016/10/2... ) However, he stated that there is so much they have to improve in Family Tree now that adding in those extra groups on the detail page is way down the road.
So, Roger, your request is already on the minds of at least some people at FamilySearch.
The design of such a feature will, I'm sure, need a lot of careful thought to be able to deal with the great variety of records through history and in different areas of the world. To take your example of witnesses or godparents at a christening, when you start digging into even this, it isn't all that straightforward. In Norwegian parish records, I have seen christening records with eight or more witnesses. Squeezing eight names into the Vital Info section would really clutter the section up.0 -
Jessie Hearle said: One way to group unrelated persons is by using the Source Box feature to attach persons that are not indexed (cannot be added by record hints or source linker)
Going to the source details lists all the persons attached.
It also gives an option to explain why they persons are included.0 -
joe martel said: I would like to have the people related to the the christening to be close to that vital conclusion as well. I would create a Source (maybe you have the image with their names in it too) and Attach the Source to that Person and tag that Source to birth/christening. You could even do this for midwife... THis way when another user is looking at the vital conclusion they'll see the Sources.0
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Juli said: I have a 3rd great grandfather who had fifteen godparents (Károly, in the middle of the right-hand page: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/619...).0
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Adrian Bruce said: Re Clutter - that definitely sounds like a need for some sort of overflow link0
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Adrian Bruce said: A small icon indicating a link to further information sounds like it might be a better way to cope with numerous extra people. (See reply immediately below).
It does occur to me that if we want to tell the full story of an event, then these extra names of witnesses etc will sometimes refer to people who have profiles in Family Tree but sometimes to people who are no more than text based names with no link. A typical example would be marriage witnesses where one might be a relative but the other might be a parish clerk. Both names need to be recorded but only the relative is likely to link to a Family Tree profile - the clerk would be just a text based name with no link.0 -
Tom Huber said: There is an existing solution to adding those who are involved with a person's event, such as a birth, marriage, religious rite (baptism/christening/wedding, etc).
That solution is a memory, in the form of a story, or in the case of a baptism, the baptismal record, which often lists the godparents; in the case of a funeral, the pallbearers, presiding authority, speakers, etc.
These are valuable memories for the subject of the event, but also important to those who participated.
If a program is not available which can be scanned and placed as a document in memories, then a suitably written story, listing each of the participants, could suffice. The names in the document and/or story could be tagged to those who are in the tree, and a source for the memory established and entered into each person's record.
The source could then be attached to the vital event and when it becomes possible, any "Other information" category that might be entered into the record.0 -
ATP said: I am trying to figure out why it is so difficult to add godparents and witnesses to "Other information"? Should you add to the vitals the name of the doctor who delivered the child from the child's birth certificate? Do you add the witnesses to a will or a deed of inheritance in verifying death in the vital information? Or any other document with witnesses? Such as a deed of trust? Where does it end?0
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ATP said: I am trying to figure out why it is so difficult to add godparents and witnesses to "Other information"? What about witnesses to a will or a deed of inheritance in verifying death in the vital information? Or any other document with witnesses? Such as a deed of trust? Where would it end?0
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ATP said: What about witnesses to a will or a deed of inheritance in verifying death in the vital information? Or any other document with witnesses? Such as a deed of trust? Where would it end?0
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Adrian Bruce said: Why does it need to end? Logically, any event / fact / attribute / whatever, could have a list of people linked to it - because that's how real life works. Witnesses to a will, to a deed, etc, etc.
It's vital that the list of linked people doesn't overwhelm the basic details of the event(s) so it's probable that the User Interface would need to put this sort of stuff on some sort of "overflow".
It's also pretty clear to me that the roles that these people might play can't be listed in the software - they have to be user-defined - just like custom facts / events. Once those aspects are taken care of (and the space issue is not likely to be easy!) then there's no reason not to just allow anything.0 -
ATP said: Adrian Bruce
I should have made it clearer that I meant the Vitals section, since as you note, that it could "overwhelm the basic details".
And speaking of "overwhelming the basic details" the use of an obituary for the vital death listing with all the pallbearers and speakers, etc.
As I see it, the basic of a vital event as an official record, or records, that document the date and place (or approximate) of birth, marriage, and death and the location of the repository where the documents exist. All else is narrative and what better "overflow" than Other Information and/or the Memories stories section to put the narrative, depending how much a person wishes to write or type!
Genealogy never ends, it is always a work in progress!0 -
Adrian Bruce said: Yes, the danger of having a Vital Event containing just the basic facts, while the "narrative" associated with it, is down in the Other Information section, is that the connection between the two is lost to visibility.
Perhaps one way of approaching it would be to list everything in the Other Information, including birth, death, birth name etc, along with the extra narrative, witnesses, etc, but have the 4 Vital Events appear automatically in summary form only in the Vitals section. Possibly these summaries would be in read only form to force people to read the fuller version before changing it. Possibly controversial!
I think that we agree on the need to be able to record this extra narrative etc - and on the need not to overwhelm the Vitals section.0 -
Paul said: Since the enhancement was introduced whereby we can read the comments ("Reason This Information Is Correct") without having to click on "Edit", I have taken to adding important facts against the Vitals. For example, in an effort to prevent an incorrect merge, I would add something like, "Not to be confused with the John Wrightson christened in neighbouring Monkwearmouth parish the following month".
However, I do not see any personal need to add detail in the Vitals section that can be placed elsewhere. In the example being discussed here, I would either:
(1) Show the detail under a Custom Fact.
(2) Enter it under a heading like "John Wrightson's Christening - Godparents" in the Collaboration section or
(3) Add a brief note under the Christening event saying, "See sources section for document listing godparents". Alternatively, "See Custom Fact relating to christening".
I just do not agree lengthy, extra detail HAS to be placed in the Vitals. Anyone seeking additional detail on an individual should automatically be prepared to examine the other sections of the record. What on earth has been the point of the developers creating the Collaboration section if we argue, "Oh, it's too 'hidden away' for other users to notice it, so we can't show facts there!"
The information being discussed is most useful, I agree, but not so essential that it has to "clog-up" the Vitals section - see Juli's example of the fifteen godparents.
In any case, if a user really wants to place such facts there, I'm sure the is already enough (character) space to do so (in the "Reason This Information Is Correct" field - room to input 2000 characters, including spaces, I just noticed) without needing any further enhancement from the developers.0 -
Paul said: Of course none of the above makes sense if a user has the Vitals "Detail View" option turned off. I accidentally did this a few days ago and realised the difference it makes in "justifying" our inputs to other users. Having Detail View switched on also provides a clear reminder to ourselves of why we thought it correct to add the event (date and place) details.0
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Paul said: I removed two posts I had added today as I realised they did not deal with the main issue / reason for this request - i.e. the ability to have links to / from the individuals in question. My comments related purely to display of information. If this alone had been the purpose of the request, I could see no reason (except "clutter") not to include godparents names in the field below the Christening date/place (as there is space for up to 2,000 characters there). However, without the "direct links" factor, I suggested Custom Fact or Collaboration sections might still be more appropriate for adding more detailed information relating to a Vitals event.0
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Roger Moritz said: I'm really only asking the Devs., and honestly Brett, you give no reason other than it shan't be. To each his own I suppose.0
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Roger Moritz said: I would say maybe show just 3 and let is scroll for the rest.0
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Roger Moritz said: I would like to see full names.0
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Roger Moritz said: Well working mostly in Germany myself, the additional people are on Birth/Baptism record, Godparents/Witnesses/Taufzeugen/Namen der Pathen/ etc., Death and Marriage have no additionals.0
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Roger Moritz said: Yes one can just past the text into the info box, but I would like to see clickable names that would then take you to grandparents, nieces, uncles, whatever0
This discussion has been closed.