Shared with Temple Sealings printed before other ordinances completed.

LegacyUser

David Austin Linford said: Sealings that I have shared with the Temple are being printed before the other ordinances for the individual are done. See image below. This seems an easy problem to solve. Don't allow Sealings to be printed until all other ordinances are completed. I have not noticed this problem with other ordinances (i.e. Confirmations before Baptisms) Why the problem with Sealings?

David

LegacyUser

David Austin Linford said: I should say "Printed & Performed".

LegacyUser

Christina Sachs Wagner said: Welcome to the community-powered support for Family Search!

Here is a Knowledge Article that you will find helpful, and the additional links at the bottom of the page will be even more helpful in understanding why this happens and that it is fully supported by the Temple Department.

https://www.familysearch.org/ask/sale...

LegacyUser

David Austin Linford said: Below is the the text from that link. In it we are asked to perform the ordinances in order. If, for whatever reason, they are performed out of order, the ordinances are still valid they just don't go into effect until until the "after the prerequisite ordinances are completed"

I understand this policy and how with people and human error it is important to allow for ordinances out of order. But computers can determine whether the prior ordinances are done and only print those with completed prerequisites. Why allow this error.

I just double checked all 8 of the Sealings to Spouses in my account that the Temple has printed and ALL of them have incomplete prerequisite ordinances.

Seems a easy policy for the temple to follow. With the Temple the "whenever possible" should be "always possible."

David

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https://www.familysearch.org/ask/sale...

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Correct order of temple ordinances
Policy
Please perform temple ordinances in the correct sequence. Perform individual ordinances before sealings. The FamilySearch Family Tree website does not clear ordinances if prerequisite ordinances have not been cleared or performed.

The correct sequence of ordinances is as follows:

Baptism.
Confirmation.
Initiatory.
Endowment.
Sealing of a husband and wife and sealing of children to parents (if possible). Whenever possible, parents should be sealed to each other before the children are sealed to the parents.

Although vicarious ordinances performed out of sequence are valid, they become effective only after the prerequisite ordinances are completed.

LegacyUser

Christina Sachs Wagner said: I am patron as you are, but I have been keeping abreast of the changes. Ron Tanner addresses your concerns in his live FB sessions. You are not alone in your concern.

However, you will need to address your concerns with the Temple Department (ie General Authorities), as they have oversight of all programming changes and they have authorized the variance in sequencing for sealings. FamilySearch (including Ordinance Ready) programming follows all current temple policies approved by the Temple Department.

Traditions are hard to let go, especially when we understood the reasons behind them. The work is hastening and we must be ready to adjust ourselves and our preferences to current policies.

If you prefer to perform the work in the proper sequence, then continue to do so, but know that the programming changes are approved by the Temple Department and will likely not be changed back. Sealings in order are preferred, but may be performed out of order, and at times should be. You will see more and more of it happening as people implement OR for taking names to the temple.

LegacyUser

David Austin Linford said: Perhaps it's because they don't have enough Sealings with completed prerequisite ordinances. So they actually NEED to use these sealings out of order to meet the numbers needed by Temple Patrons, either through "Ordinances Ready" or Sealings printed by the temples themselves.

LegacyUser

Cindy Hecker said: David, consider this situation. I have done the ordinances for a female spouse (call her Mary) of a direct relative. I can do Mary's sealing to her parents, as it is her ordinance, but I cannot complete Mary's parents ordinances because I do not have permission to go up her line (not my direct line). Her parents may not be sealed yet or even baptized but I can complete her ordinances and they will be valid when someone who is allowed does her parents ordinances. I could wait who knows how many years for their ordinances to be complete, and it would likely be beyond the 2 year limit and I might loose the ordinance. Sometime out of order does make sense.

LegacyUser

Christina Sachs Wagner said: David Austin Linford, you may be right and that's a good point! I know some people who choose not do endowments for their own reasons and will only do sealings. But whatever the reasoning, it is hastening the work and I love it! I still try to accomplish prior ordinances when I can. I have plenty to do, so it's not hard to find what I want to do during any particular temple visit. I also like to pair up a married couple for their endowments in the same session. My husband takes the husband and I take the wife. That's a cool experience!

Cindy Hecker gives a valid example of when it is preferred to complete the SP before the parents' work/sealing is be completed.

LegacyUser

Brett said: David

A couple of things; and, further to was has already been discussed in this post of yours ...

"SS" Work is often done 'out of order' (as such Work done in the past is a prime example); and, in fact, can "technically" (via, the "System") be done 'out of order' - although the preference is that it is done in order.

"SP" can be done 'out of order', in regards to the "Parents" Work NOT being done; as, that "Sealing" relates to the "Child" and NOT the "Parents".

Here are a few "Knowledge Articles" on the matters:

Correct order of temple ordinances ... (52726)
https://www.familysearch.org/ask/sale...

Where it states that ... "Although vicarious ordinances performed out of sequence are valid, they become effective only after the prerequisite ordinances are completed."

.
Why are the temple ordinance dates out of order in Family Tree? ... (53783)
https://www.familysearch.org/ask/sale...

Where it states that ...

- The names came from an extracted record. For example, if the name was extracted from a marriage record, only the marriage information was available. At the time, only the sealing to spouse was performed. The remaining ordinances were done later. They may even still need to be done.

- The ordinances were inadvertently or intentionally performed out of order in error.

.
Why was a sealing ordinance done out of order? ... (538365)
https://www.familysearch.org/ask/sale...

Where it states that ...

Ordinances Ready
The Ordinances Ready feature allows sealings to be done before the individual ordinances. While performing all ordinances in proper sequence is preferred, it is acceptable to perform sealing-to-spouse ordinances without checking that the individual ordinances have been performed.

Extracted marriage records
In the past, many sealing-to-spouse ordinances that came from extracted marriage records were completed before the individual ordinances.

.
If the "System" allows it; then, go with the flow ...

We do not live in a perfect World, far from it ...

Don't sweat it ...

As long as the WORK gets done ...

And, most importantly, remember ... "Although vicarious ordinances performed out of sequence are valid, they become effective only after the prerequisite ordinances are completed."

Just my thoughts.

Brett

LegacyUser

David Austin Linford said: Cindy & Christina,

I acknowledge and accept that there are occasions when performing sealings before earlier ordinances might be best. I also am good with the fact that ordinances are often done out of order by mistake and will still "count".

I also accept that the Temple itself prints and does ordinances out of order and that this is allowed under the direction of the Temple Department, and that these ordinances are valid. However the Temple doing ordinances out of order is not a mistake as the computer can clearly know which ordinances are done. It is also not doing these ordinances out of order based on some sort of decisions on what is best or easiest as Cindy outlines. It's just randomly taking my sealings that I've shared with the temple and deciding to print them before other ordinances are completed.

Here, in my opinion, is the problem.

Setup
I have 4 teenage daughters that go to the temple for baptisms quite often. So my girls & I perform hundreds or thousands of baptisms & confirmations a year. This gives me a backlog of all the other ordinances and I end up with a lot (over 6,000 right now) of people in my Family Search Temple list. Because I can never hope to complete all these ordinances with just my family and me I share the vast majority of these with the Temple. Whenever I go to do ordinances like Inititories, Endowments or Sealings I just "Unshare" them with the temple and print them so I, my wife or other family members can use them.

Resulting Problem
Because the Temple is performing these Sealings out of order, I really have to work to find Sealings, with completed prerequisite ordinances to perform, as we are advised to do. Because the Temple is doing them before I am told I should do them. I am told that "whenever possible" ordinances should be performed in the proper order. I make every effort to do this. Basically I try to follow the rule but the Temple doesn't seem to at all.

Solution
Either it matters that ordinances are generally performed in the correct order and the Temple and I should generally not do it.

OR

It doesn't matter and both the Temple and I both should feel free to perform sealings out of order.

LegacyUser

Tom Huber said: Are you actually related to those 6,000 persons? There is serious discussion about limiting the number of persons you can have in your temple list. By the way, Ordinances Ready bypasses this problem because it is a temporary reservation. Some figures have been as low as 250 and some as high as 1,000 names. The recommendation is that you reserve no more than the number of persons that you can perform vicarious work for within a reasonable period of time. That period of time has varied from one to two years (no more).

No solution is needed. The process is in place and follows what the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve have instructed. If you have an ongoing problem with the way things work, then you should probably discuss this with your Stake President.

LegacyUser

Tom Huber said: By the way, the temple does not perform ordinances out of order.

The correct order has always been baptism, confirmation, initiatory, and endowment. Sealing to parents have the previous ordinances performed for the child (unless they died before the age of accountability).

Sealing to spouses are recorded on their own card and are not tied to any of the individual ordinances.

This has all been explained in the referenced articles.

Do not overlook the "if possible" and "Whenever possible" parts of the instruction. They are not equivalent to "Always", but allow for variations of the sealings (only) due to circumstances.

LegacyUser

Amy Archibald said: David, if you don't want the temple to print the Sealing to Spouse cards until you are ready for them to be done, then don't share them to the temple file.

LegacyUser

David Austin Linford said: Tom,

I am related to all of these people. I have gotten them by searching the descendants of my ancestors.

On the topic of order. Here is the direct quote from the policy

"The correct sequence of ordinances is as follows:

Baptism.
Confirmation.
Initiatory.
Endowment.
Sealing of a husband and wife and sealing of children to parents (if possible)."

There is no mention of Sealings of Husband and Wife being exempt from this but this ordinance is specifically mentioned in the "correct sequence of ordinances".

If this is the "correct sequence of ordinances" then anything else must be incorrect. So the "correct" order is preferred but the incorrect order is allowed if the "correct" order is for whatever reason not possible.

Apparently when the Temple does them in an incorrect order this falls under the not possible exception.

I am not complaining. I am merely pointing out a discrepancy, that I perceive, between what I'm being asked to do by policy and what the temple does.

Thanks,
David

LegacyUser

David Austin Linford said: Amy,

That is one solution. I'm just sad to take people out of the Shared with Temple Queue.

David

LegacyUser

David Austin Linford said: Tom,

I feel I must address something with you, because I am starting to resent your comments on my posts on this forum. I don't want my resentment to come between us.

Often, with my posts, you act in a way toward me that I feel is condescending and dismissive. I am merely sharing thoughts and Ideas that I think will improve things. You come back with accusations of pride and misuse and that my ideas are ridiculous. Obviously you are allowed to disagree with me and I'm eager to explain myself but your responses seem like an attempt to silence me and get me "back in line."

I am not going away. I love the temple and family history. I also like the opportunity on this forum to ask questions and share my ideas. I will continue to do that.

There are others, perhaps, when met by your responses, who will shy away and cease to use this forum as a place to learn and teach. You are very active on this forum and think you should know how you come across, at least to me.

Thanks,
David

LegacyUser

Amy Archibald said: This info is also important about why ordinances are out of order and why to not worry about them when they are.

https://www.familysearch.org/ask/sale...

****

The Shared with Temple queue will allow for Sealings to Spouses to be done out of order. That is the nature of that software. It is Temple Department software.

LegacyUser

Brett said: David

Read ALL the "Knowledge Articles" that I have provided in my "Reply" below.

As 'Tom' has indicated ...

"Do not overlook the "if possible" and "Whenever possible" parts of the instruction. They are not equivalent to "Always", but allow for variations of the sealings (only) due to circumstances."

f the "System" allows it; then, go with the flow ...

We do not live in a perfect World, far from it ...

Don't sweat it ...

As long as the WORK gets done ...

And, most importantly, remember ... "Although vicarious ordinances performed out of sequence are valid, they become effective only after the prerequisite ordinances are completed."

Just my thoughts.

Brett

LegacyUser

Amy Archibald said: David,

* You can share SS with the temple department shared list when they are ready (individual ordinances done).
* You can share SS when the individual ordinances aren't done.
* You can leave the SS in the Tree not reserved.

The Ordinances Ready (temple department) software run by another person will pull related to them names from the shared with temple list first and then will search the tree for related to them names.

The only way you can ensure the SS you find are done after all the individual ordinances is to keep them on your list until the individual ordinances are done.

In 1993 - long before the current software we have, I was in the temple with my parents to do some family sealings (the temple printed the family name cards). The sealer took a small pile of SS - where the individual ordinances were not yet completed and said that he felt we needed to do those sealings that night too. We were shocked and concerned about the "order" of things. Anyway, the work was done that night. The next morning about 6 am, my father received a phone call from a person who had a letter my father had written to their family 25 years before. They had information on the family they could share. A couple days later we got a 4 am phone call from another person who had found another 25 year old family letter. They too provided detailed family information. These people were descendants (not LDS) of the people whom we had sealed together a few days before - those without their individual ordinances.

I learned a powerful lesson in 1993, that mortality is bound by rigid principles of time. However, the spirit world is not bound by time.

We quickly completed the missing individual ordinances and 26 years later I am still receiving powerful spiritual promptings from this extended family in the spirit world that continues to direct the majority of my family history and temple work today.

****
If you have control of the ordinance cards, you can control the order of the ordinances. When you share the ordinances with the temple department list you no longer can have that control.

***
I have found some new cousins via Ordinances Ready. Those who have taken the SS and completed it while the individual ordinances were still undone. Some new-to-me cousins have now taken dozens of individual ordinances from me because they first helped with SS.

Anyway, just some thoughts. Maybe they can help you.

Amy

LegacyUser

David Austin Linford said: A good and thorough comment.

Thanks,
David

LegacyUser

Tom Huber said: Hi David,

I can't help how you feel about my comments. I do not intend to be dismissive or condescending, but like others, the comments can be taken that way.

Some background. In the past, several users have come on a complained about the slow load time for their temple list. In at least two (possibly more) of those situations, the user had reserved a large number (in the tens of thousands) of people for whom they could not establish a relationship, but because they were from the same village and had the same name, they reserved them without actually establishing any relationship. And I suspect that you know as well as I do, that the practice is against policy. The only exception is when you know of a person who has the same name, but sufficient records are not available to establish the relationship. That option is obviously not a carte blanche to reserve all the persons in a village with the last surname.

Anyway, when you wrote, "This gives me a backlog of all the other ordinances and I end up with a lot (over 6,000 right now) of people in my Family Search Temple list," that raised a concern with me. So I chose to ask the question and also thought that maybe you needed to be aware of the discussion concerning FamilySearch limiting the number of people we could have in our temple list.

I had this same situation, myself, and quickly learned that the names were not getting completed because of the temple-shared backlog. Rather than keep the names reserved, I have released them and they are getting completed a lot faster than had I kept them reserved and temple-shared.

Now the only names that I keep temple-shared are those that I feel I can do myself.

You wrote a lengthy entry on a "Resulting Problem" and the first thing you said was that "Because the Temple is performing these sealings out of order..." it hit me wrong. Temples do not perform ordinances out of order. What has happened is that the information for the prerequisite ordinances was not available at the time those ordinances were performed. This was part of the extraction program that was used up to about six or so months ago. Where there is sufficient information on the child... the correct order of ordinances, including sealing to the parents, is followed by the temple.

But, as has already been stated, the ordinance belongs to the child, not the parents and we are not authorized to do the work of the unrelated parents of a person who married our relative. Therefore, it is correct that that child be sealed to their parents, even if their work is incomplete.

As far as sealing couples, the article on when the sealing ordinance appears to not have been done in the correct order is clear that the couple sealing ordinances can be done before either or both of the persons in the relationship have their other work completed. This is a common practice when the extracted records are marriage records with insufficient information on each person to complete the other vicarious ordinances..

I do not understand why you are saying that the Temple does not have to follow the correct order. That bothers me, because it looks like you are criticizing what the Church is doing with regard to the sealing ordinances, even though it is clear that what is being done is entirely correct.

So why the criticism of what the Brethren (First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve) have approved?

To me, if that is a problem that you have, then I would much rather you take the concern to your Stake President, rather than discuss it here. The policies are clear and the reasons have been explained in official documentation.

You find my comments "condescending and dismissive", but I wonder if you have given any thought to what you have written and how others may take what you've said.

Again, I do not intend… [truncated]

Kathrine O Beeder

I'm a very late-comer. Pretty much two years after all of you have had this discussion.

I have had the same issues as David started in this thread, and was thinking to suggest exactly as he did.

My problem is that with making "temple reservations" to go to the temple at all, it seems that Sealings are the most available appointments. An endowment appointment can take up to a month. Initiatory and baptism appointments can take almost two months at times. You can keep checking back for people who cancel or change their appointments, which opens up an earlier appointment. All of this is hit-and-miss. I'm starting to try to do endowments at other temples that are reasonably close. (I'm lucky - I live south of Salt Lake City.)

So I get more sealing appointments than anything. And I see a lot of what David describes above. Originally I was happy when I saw my work getting done by the temple as well! Fabulous! I have help! But when I can do sealings more than any other ordinance, it can take HOURS to find a handful of names that are appropriately in sequence. I have never thought to do otherwise. And I have been at sealing sessions and have seen names returned to patrons who had "cards" to be sealed with the other ordinances incomplete.

I am getting the impression from all of the above conversation, to not bother asking the FHE system to create algorythms to not allow sealings out of order, unless it's an "in-law spouse - to parents". So rather than ask like David, I will put on my "happy hat", and be grateful for the help.

But the "ordinances ready" will not work to quickly find names because it gives me names that either don't have the previous work done, or are not related to me (and I have PLENTY of names that ARE related to me).

(I share all my names with the temple for two reasons: I need the help, and if something happened to me they would be locked up for years....)

So it seems searching for sealing ordinances that are in the appropriate order is still going to be tedious. And I am making notes of women where only the endowment needs to be done (which I can do) before the sealing to spouse can be done, and making a special list of my own. But again, the endowments are literally the hardest to get appointments for, so it seems I am always searching.... (One trick that helps is to look for temple ordinances completed and search for the recent END ones.)

One note: I recently found a family in my line (while I was searching for sealings) and I attached sources and was literally able to share about 20 people for their temple work. I suppose this is the "sweet spot" of searching through all of those names. Perhaps that is the purpose.

My personality - I'm VERY obedient (not a rebel). And so this might bring on a bit of OCD and frustration since I could literally get appointments for sealings almost any day.

Another problem: People that don't keep their temple appointments! Or don't delete them when they can't keep them! Locking up vacant times!