Query: What has happened to "Keep me signed in for 2 weeks"? What recent, "scheduled" upload; or, "I

LegacyUser

Brett said: FamilySearch

Query:

What has happened to "Keep me signed in for 2 weeks" to "Family Tree" of "FamilySearch"!?

What recent, "scheduled" upload; or, "In-Line" upload, release, has all of a sudden affected "Keep me signed in for 2 weeks" of "Family Tree" of "FamilySearch", when using the 'Google' "Chrome" and/or, 'Mozilla' "FireFox"!?

And, yet, working fine in 'Microsoft' "Edge"!

On my Laptop computer I have always "Ticked" ( ie. "Checked" ) the "Keep me signed in for 2 weeks" of "Family Tree" of "FamilySearch", when there was a need to "Log In".

That said ...

Today, I was working, on my Laptop computer, through 'Google' "Chrome", in "Family Tree" of "FamilySearch", all morning and early afternoon at my local FHC; and, 'closed down' ( ie. Did Not 'Log Out' ) as normal.

I arrived home later in this afternoon; and, using my Laptop computer, through 'Google' "Chrome", accessed "Family Tree" of "FamilySearch"; but, was not automatically "Signed" into "Family Tree" of "FamilySearch" as normal; but, was required to go right back in through the "Log In" process!?

And, the same problem/issue occurred with 'Mozilla' "FireFox".

Yet; and, when I tried with 'Microsoft' "Edge", I was automatically "Signed" into "Family Tree" of "FamilySearch" as normal.

SO,

Has something happened with regard to a recent, "scheduled" upload; or, "In-Line" upload, release, that has all of a sudden affected the "Keep me signed in for 2 weeks" of "Family Tree" of "FamilySearch", when working in the 'Google' "Chrome" and/or, 'Mozilla' "FireFox"!? And, yet, not 'Microsoft' "Edge"!?

OR,

Has something happened with regard to, 'Google' "Chrome"; and/or, 'Mozilla' "FireFox", that has all of a sudden affected "Keep me signed in for 2 weeks" when working in the "Family Tree" of "FamilySearch"!?

By the way, I have done the aforementioned before (ie. Home INTERNET access; to FHC INTERNET access; and, back Home INTERNET access again) without the aforementioned problem/issue!

And, nothing to do with "Clearing" the "Cache" or "Cookies" or "Browsing History".

Any thoughts!?

Brett

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Logan Allred said: I am unaware of any changes that should impact this. I just tested it and the 2 week checkbox worked fine for me.

However, there are a small number of failures (< 1%) that occasionally happen, and there are some other changes to the login flow that are happening right now that shouldn't impact this but possibly could.

It appears to me that the 2 week checkbox worked about just as well yesterday across the whole system as it has for the last several weeks, from the data I have access to.

I would be interested to know if this seems to be a one-time occurrence on that particular day, or if the 2 week checkbox works worse than it used to in general across several days.

The 2 week checkbox does rely on cookies in your browser, and it is not shared across browsers, so it's possible something bad happened with the Chrome and Firefox cookie, but your Edge cookie was still okay. That would be rather unusual, but could happen.

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Tom Huber said: Hm. I am going to test this (Windows 7 with Chrome). I know that the two-week period is cookie oriented, so each browser works on its own. I also know that if I fire up the beta site, I'm automatically signed out of the production site on the same computer, even if I'm using a different browser -- at least that's the way it has worked in the past, so I use a different computer with the beta site.

I wasn't looking for this when I just fired up the system this morning, but I did not have to re-enter my credentials. When I pressed Sign In, the system did not ask me to enter my credentials, so from that aspect. the two-week period was still working -- Windows 7 and Chrome.

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Tom Huber said: Just did some testing with my Windows 7 laptop and Chrome.

I signed out of FamilySearch, then closed the browser. I then reopened the browser and activated a shortcut to the Changes Watch List (which requires me to be logged in).

The system opened the sign in page that required me to enter my credentials. I checked the 2 week box and the Changes Watch List page opened.

Then I closed down to the browser, waited for CCleaner to clear temporary cookies, and then I reopened the browser and activated a shortcut to the Changes Watch List . The system automatically signed me in as normal and opened the page.

This is with Windows 7 and Chrome, so that appears to be working fine with my system.

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Brett said: G'Day (Morning) from "Down Under"

Logan

'Thank You' for joining in on this post, as an "Official 'FamilySearch' Representative".

Interesting that you are NOT aware ... "of any changes that should impact this" ... in "Family Tree" of "Family Search"!?

I would like to know of the ... " [1] there are a small number of failures (< 1%) that occasionally happen, and [2] there are some other changes to the login flow that are happening right ... now that shouldn't impact this but possibly could ..."!?

'Yes', I have not had this happen for some time!?

As to late yesterday afternoon, at home, being a one-time (one-off) occurrence, it WAS, for the rest of yesterday afternoon and evening, as I was NOT required to "Log (back) In" with my UserID and Password after periods of inactivity.

And, as advised in my original posting, this has NOTHING to do with "Clearing" the "Cache" or "Cookies" or "Browsing History" - as I have not done so for some time.

Plus, I had not accessed the "Beta" (ie. "Test") Environment for some time, quite a number of days, at least.

And, I have checked for viruses, spyware, malware and the like - nothing to report on that front, not issues.

BUT ...

TODAY ...

I was AGAIN this morning, at home, on my Lap Top computer, when I accessed "Family Tree" of "Family Search" - I WAS required to "Log (back) In" with my UserID and Password, both, with 'Google' "Chrome"; and/or, 'Mozilla' "FireFox"; but, NOT with 'Microsoft' "Edge".

I wonder if it is now "Browser" related.

As 'Tom" has mentioned in the past in other posts, the 'Developers' of the 'Browsers' can make 'In-Line' up-dates to the browsers without our knowledge, just like "FamilySearch".

I do not allow automatic up-dates of any programmes; and, certainly NOT the "Browsers". I like to be advised of then; and, do the up-dates when I am good and ready.

This is going to real annoying, if such is the case, to have to, "Log (back) In" with my UserID and Password, each time of inactivity and/or moving locations (and INTERNET access)!

I am staffing the FHC this evening, I will see if the same thing happens again with a move of location (and INTERNET access).

==========

Tom

Again, 'Thanks' for your input.

I am well are that if I go between the "Production" (ie. "Live") Environment and the "Beta" (ie. "Test") Environment that I am required to "Log (back) In" with my UserID and Password each time - no issues with that.

But, I am certain that some Users/Patrons may not have been aware of that; so, thank you for the thought.

==========

Logan

Any thoughts!?

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Brett said: Hm!

Curiouser and curiouser ...

This afternoon and this evening:-

From: Home (INTERNET)
To: FHC (LDS INTERNET)
Back: Home (INTERNET)

Was automatically singed in each time.
Was NOT required to "Log In" with UserID and Password once.

Weirder and weirder ....

I will see what happens tomorrow morning.

Brett

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Brett said: Again, Hm!

I give up!

Next day, automatically singed in, was NOT required to "Log In" with UserID and Password!?

Maybe just a glitch, ... somewhere!

Brett

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Brett said: FamilySearch

Why is the feature of "Keep me signed in for 2 weeks" to "Family Tree" of "FamilySearch" so 'hit and miss'?

It happened again this afternoon (my local time zone)!

This time I had not even changed location; and, certainly not computers!

I was quite happily signed into "Family Tree", this afternoon, after Church.

"Family Tree" was idle for a more than the allowed allotted 20 minutes; as, I was also participating in the "FamilySearch" ( "GetSatisfaction" ) 'Feedback' Forum in another 'Tab'.

Then, after having had my share of the Forum, I then re-accessed "Family Tree".

Normally, in such a case, I would have been quickly and "Automatically" signed back into "Family Tree" without any drama.

But, 'No, not this time.

I was then presented with the requirement to "Log (back) In" to "Family Tree".

So ...

Instead of "Logging (back) In" to "Family Tree", I "Re-Started" my computer.

I then accessed "Family Tree" of "FamilySearch", selected the "Sign In"; and, 'blow me down' I was quickly and "Automatically" signed back into "Family Tree" WITHOUT having to "Log In" with my 'UserID' and 'Password' and without any drama.

So ...

Why was I required to "Log (back) In" to "Family Tree" with my 'UserID' and 'Password' earlier, in the first interest?

This should not have been the case.

Again, I ask the question: Why is the feature of "Keep me signed in for 2 weeks" to "Family Tree" of "FamilySearch" so 'hit and miss'?

What is amiss?

And ...

As an aside, I have noticed, of late, that if I have multiple 'Tabs' and/or 'Windows' open simultaneously, after a period of inactivity, I am being "Automatically" signed back into "Family Tree" WITHOUT having to "Log In" with my 'UserID' and 'Password'; but, the same thing is happening a more than one, sometimes all, the 'Tabs' and/or 'Windows'.

Previously, when I was "Automatically" signed back into "Family Tree" WITHOUT having to "Log In" with my 'UserID' and 'Password' in one of the multiple 'Tabs' and/or 'Windows' open simultaneously, there was NO requirement to do the same with any of the other 'Tabs' and/or 'Windows'.

So ...

What 'gives' here in this situation, with multiple 'Tabs' and/or 'Windows' open simultaneously?

Brett

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Brett said: FamilySearch

Again ...

Why is the feature of "Keep me signed in for 2 weeks" to "Family Tree" of "FamilySearch" so 'hit and miss'?

It happened AGAIN this morning (my local time zone)!

Again, this time I had not even changed location; and, certainly not computers!

I was using 'Google' "Chrome" with "Windows 10"; and, I was quite happily signed into and working away in "Family Tree", last night, well into the early hours of this morning, until about 1:30 am.

"Family Tree" had been idle for a more than the allowed allotted 20 minutes, at one stage; but, that was no problem/issue; as, I was automatically "Signed-In" WITHOUT having to sign in with my "UserID" and "Password".

Now 6 Hours later, after the nights sleep, I am required to sign back in with my "UserID" and "Password".

There does not seem to be any 'rhyme or reason' to it!

So ...

Instead of signing back in through 'Google' "Chrome", I then decided to access "Family Tree" through 'Modilla' "FireFox" ... and ... ta-da! ... automatically "Signed-In" WITHOUT having to sign in with my "UserID" and "Password"!

Tied again with 'Google' "Chrome" - no go.

And,

I had NOT accessed the "Beta" ( "Test" ) Environment in 'Google' "Chrome"!

Nor, had I up-dated 'Google' "Chrome" as it is up-to-date!

The only thing was, is that, I was using the "Consultant Planner"; but, that is not usually a problem/issue.

So ...

Why was I required to "Log (back) In" to "Family Tree" with my 'UserID' and 'Password' in 'Google' "Chrome", on my own computer, on my home INTERNET?

This should not have been the case.

Again, I ask the question: Why is the feature of "Keep me signed in for 2 weeks" to "Family Tree" of "FamilySearch" so 'hit and miss'?

What is amiss?

Brett

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Tom Huber said: I have found the two-week period to be very consistent on my Windows 7 with Chrome computer system.

I don't know if this is the case or not, but a couple of years ago, I bought a new computer for my wife. I set it up and lo and behold, the thing would not keep the settings I had established.

Computer system are pushed to market without adequate testing and have been for better than a decade. It is the "Window of opportunity" that is critical to keeping ahead of the crowd.

That doesn't exist as much as it did when new hardware was being introduced with upgraded chip sets, and so on. Today's computers are all basically the same with some minor differences between the few left in the market.

But, computers do age and so do their components and as such, the only thing that I can think of is that what Brett is experiencing may be a glitch in his computer having to do with one of several possibilities:

1) Heat, or more correctly heating and cooling -- thermal problems with the hardware that can affect operation. Some laptops have to be placed on special platforms that includes fans blowing at any available vents to keep the laptop from overheating.

2) Dust -- these can form temporary bridges and cause a computer to misbehave. Dust builds up in time in almost every environment, and even thought we tend to keep our homes clean and what we believe to be dust-free, computers are dust magnets and if there is dust, even the smallest degree of dust, a computer will be the one place where it is found (along with dust bunnies under furniture.

Those are the most common problems behind intermittent operation. The operation can be very limited in scope, which makes them very hard to diagnose and resolve.

Brett,

My question is whether you see this aberrant behavior on any other computer or if it is only on one machine? In other words, and assuming you do not use your main computer between visits, do you see the same problem at your local FHC or on another computer? Even isolating an intermittent problem to a specific computer can be very difficult. If it is computer-isolated, then the problem will not appear on other computers, even those that are identical models to the one that is causing the problem.

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Brett said: Tom

'Thank You' your thoughts, insight and comments, they are always very much appreciated.

My main computer is my "Laptop".

A smaller, cheaper, "Laptop", bought in "Walmart", while we were touring the USA; as, my bigger, sturdy, "Laptop", finally 'gave up the ghost' - connection between base and screen, inevitable.

I have had the new one fort about 16 or so Months now.

I keep all the Firmware; and, Software; and, Programmes; and, Browsers, etc, up-to-date.

'Heat' is not an issue. It sits on a raised air-ventilated pad, with two cooling fans.

'Dust' is not an issue. Covered if left open on my office desk unattended.

Now, when I am staffing my local Stake "Family History Centre" (FHC), I generally use my "Laptop"; as, we only have x4 computers for Patrons and one on the main Desk for Staff.

INTERNET access: I alternate between my Home INTERNET and the FHC/Chapel INTERNET - "Usually" with no problems/issues; especially, with not having to sign in with my "UserID" and "Password". Oh, and very occasionally my Mobile INTERNET with my "Laptop"; but, not for some time; and, it is usually not a problem/issue.

And, I DO NOT "Clear" my "Cache", etc regularly - I should; but, just do not.

I well understand that all computers are distinct and different to each other; including, identical models with the same systems.

This problem/issue seems to have gotten worse with all the frequent up-dates and releases ('Scheduled' and/or 'In-Line) of "Family Tree" / "FamilySearch" of late.

I know that there can be any number of explanations as to why this is so; but, just seems more frequent of late.

Just my 'slant'.

I am just curious.

Again, 'Thank You'.

Brett

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Tom Huber said: Don't consider "Dust" as not an issue. The majority of dust is obtained during operation, not when 'off'. The fans are the enemies there and pass dusty air (even though it may be heavily filtered, the dust is still there) through the computer, which then gathers on the components.

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Tom Huber said: You may want to consider the "free" version of CCleaner. I use the pro (paid) version, which automatically cleans certain elements when I close a browser.

I would use the free version at the moment and run it after you close the browser each time as a matter of practice, just to see what that does for the problem. It would help to eliminate any physical element, such as heat and dust.

By the way, I do not think that heat or dust is the root cause, simply because you are moving your laptop to different locations and the problem is still intermittent.

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Brett said: Tom

I understand; but, I do not think that "Dust" is the 'crux' of the problem/issue in this instance.

Brett

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Brett said: Tom

I have heard you mention that 'CCleaner' and a couple of other programmes; perhaps, I should, just to see; but, it seems to be just so intermittent - frustrating.

Brett

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Brett said: FamilySearch

One again, this time, without cause or warning ...

Why is the feature of "Keep me signed in for 2 weeks" to "Family Tree" of "FamilySearch" so 'hit and miss'?

It happened AGAIN this afternoon/evening (my local time zone)!

Again, this time it is certainly very strange!

I had been using INTERNET access from Home, on my Laptop computer; AND, then, I had been using the INTERNET access from my Mobile Phone for the last couple of days, on the same Laptop computer, while travelling; AND, then, this afternoon/evening back using INTERNET access from Home, on the same Laptop computer - ALL good.

I had not, been required; and/or, needed to, "Log In" with my "UserID" and "Password", at any stage above.

Now, without cause or warning; and, well within the 20 Minutes of inactivity, all of a sudden, I am required to "Log In" with my "UserID" and "Password".

This should NOT have been the case.

So intermittent, without 'rhyme or reason'.

==========

FamilySearch

Once again, I continue to ask the question: Why is the feature of "Keep me signed in for 2 weeks" to "Family Tree" of "FamilySearch" SO 'hit and miss'?

What is amiss!?

Would have any recent (like an hour ago) "In-Line" up-date / release have caused this to happen!?

Brett

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Brett said: FamilySearch

Not again!

Within an Hour or 2!

There is DEFINITELY something WRONG with "Keep me signed in for 2 weeks"!

Brett

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Logan Allred said: I have been looking through our logs for errors during this time, and I believe I found some clues to the problem. It appears to happen sometimes when multiple browser tabs or windows all try to refresh at the same time, and if 2 or more of those requests hit at just the exact moment, one succeeds and the other one fails. Normally this happens fast enough that it isn't a problem and all of the tabs/windows refresh correctly, but it appears there is a small chance where it can fail, which is why it is intermittent. It depends on the precise timing of some of the simultaneous requests happening within a few milliseconds.

As I mentioned previously, there is a small set of errors that happens regularly that we haven't been able to track down, and you appear to have landed in that small set a few times in a row. Sorry this has been flaky for you, but hopefully we can make it better soon.

I will capture some notes and submit an issue to have this fixed.

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Tom Huber said: There are instances that I have found (and I should have noted what page I was attempting to open from a shortcut) where I had to "sign in". Other pages do not have that problem and automatically reactivate my credentials.

The next time I run into that oddity, I will post the page that created the problem.

Tom

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Brett said: Logan

Again, G'Day (Morning) from "Down Under"

'Thank You' for that information.

I knew that there had to be something 'amiss'.

I also knew that if I "whinged" enough, something would be found and addressed/fixed.

Looks like, I am just lucky; and, happen to encounter the issue/problem more often than others.

'Yes', it has certainly been "flaky" and a little "frustrating" - I could not figure out what I was doing, differently; or, wrong.

By the way, as an aside, following from what 'Tom' raised ...

It is not so much having to "Log In" with my "UserID" and "Password" each time; but, I have also noticed, of late, that when I have a number of 'Tabs' and/or 'Windows' open simultaneously and working between them, I am continually being "Automatically" re-logged in again to ALL the various 'Tabs' and/or 'Windows' when going between the 'Tabs' and/or 'Windows'.

Previously, if need be, I was only "Automatically" re-logged to just ONE 'Tab' and/or 'Window'; and, ALL the other 'Tabs' and/or "Windows' that were open simultaneously just worked normally once that first 'Tab' and/or 'Window' had been "Automatically" re-logged in.

I am not sure if the aforementioned is a contributor factor in the situation you describe - whereas, now more "Automatic" 'Log-Ins' are occurring!?

Just more food for thought.

Brett

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Brett said: FamilySearch
( Logan ALLRED )

This is ridiculous.

Happily working in "Family Tree" of "FamilySearch" all day.

Gone past the 20 Minutes on inactivity time limit on a semi regular basis.

Sometimes I was not even re-logged back in.
Sometimes I was re-logged back in,
But, up until to night, I was not required to "Sign" back in with UserID and Password.

Now, tonight, 22:00 Hours (my local time), well within the 20 Minute inactivity limit, I am required to "Sign" back in with UserID and Password - across the board, ALL 'Tabs" and "Windows"!?

And, I was only working with one 'Tab', at the time, not multiple 'Tabs' or 'Windows".

Only consolation was that when I "Sign" back in with UserID and Password in one 'Tab', when I "Refreshed" all the other 'Tabs' and 'Windows' that wanted me to sign back in, at least they "Automatically" re-logged me back in again, where I was. At least that works.

What is going on?

As already advised by 'Logan' (an "Official 'FamilySearch' Representative"), you definitely have a problem/issue with the "Keep me signed in for 2 weeks".

I seem to be hitting this small intermittent chance a lot!

Please do something about it ASAP.

Brett

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Tom Huber said: Brett, I have encountered some 502 errors during Ancestral Quest's Update Ordinances operation. They are logged because I save the update logs and occur sometimes only once in a long (days or weeks) while or several times during any particular update operation.

I am currently downloading my wife's ancestry from FamilySearch via Ancestral Quest and have twice encountered a request to "sign in" to FamilySearch. I believe those interruptions that required me to sign back in were 502 errors. The sign in requirement may be equivalent to what you are experiencing with your server or the way the FamilySearch site is set up (which is hiding the error code).

I recommend you look at https://www.lifewire.com/502-bad-gate...

There is a very good explanation of what causes the problem and some solutions that may or may not apply in your case. - I don't believe item 11 in the list of things to do applies, since many of us would repeatedly experience your problem if that was the case, and the last time I had to sign back in with the AQ that has been running for four days was yesterday.

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Brett said: FamilySearch

( Attention: Logan ALLRED )

This is beyond ridiculous.

Happily working in "Family Tree" of "FamilySearch" all day yesterday and into the early hours of the next morning today, without a 'hitch'.

As usual, gone past the 20 Minutes on inactivity time limit on a semi regular basis.

Again, sometimes I was not even re-logged back in.
And, Sometimes I was re-logged back in,
But, I was not required to "Sign" back in with UserID and Password.

I had up-dated my versions of the 'Browsers' of 'Google' "Chrome" and 'Modzilla' "FireFox" yesterday, first thing; before, I commenced with any of "FamilySearch".

And, if I recall, I was required to "Sign" back in with UserID and Password, due to the up-graded version of the browser - that I get.

But, later this morning (today), after some sleep, I am required to "Sign" back in with UserID and Password!?

And, furthermore, initially, although I was logged-in back in on a 'Tab', when I opened a new 'Tab', I was expected to "Sign" back in with UserID and Password. I closed that 'Tab'; and, opened another new 'Tab'; and, for this new 'Tab', I was "Automatically" re-logged me back in again! What gives!?

What is going on?

As already advised by 'Logan' (an "Official 'FamilySearch' Representative"), you definitely CONTINUE to have a problem/issue with the "Keep me signed in for 2 weeks".

I seem to be hitting this "Small" intermittent "Chance", quite a lot!

Please do something about it ASAP.

Brett

ps: And, I am only utilise "FamilySearch". I do not utilise any "Third Party" Applications to connect with "FamilySearch".

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Tom Huber said: I think that Logan misunderstood your sign-in issue -- that sometimes, it automatically works after the timeout, but at other times, it requires you to re-enter your credentials, even well-within the two-week option.

Third-party programs will automatically re-enter your credentials for you and have nothing to do with the problem you are experiencing. It doesn't really matter, because the problem appears to be tied to your location and internet connection back to the FamilySearch servers.

I mentioned the 502 error. That should not impact your experience.

What I have found is that if I have Chrome open and then use Firefox (on the same computer) to test an issue, I do not use the two-week option in Firefox. In most instances, when I come back to Chrome, for some reason, Chrome wants me to enter my credentials...

My thinking is that something is happening at the server end of things with the cookies that are supposed to be controlling the two-week option and are supposed to be browser specific (that is, the Firefox cookie should not impact the Chrome cookie for the two-week option).

That may or may not be related to your experience.

LegacyUser

Brett said: FamilySearch

What has caused the "Keep me signed in for 2 weeks" to FAIL this morning (my local time - UTC+10)?

I was happily working away in "Family Tree" just 7 Hours ago; now, I have to "Sign In" again across Three (x3) "Browsers" ( "Chrome"; "FireFox"; and, "Edge" )!

Was there any "Up-Date" / "Release" that was just done "In-Line" that would have caused the "Keep me signed in for 2 weeks" to FAIL?

It has nothing to do with being on a "Sunday" (in Utah), the 'busy time'!

So, what gives!?

'Thank You' in advance.

Brett

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Carolyn Wheeler said: I have give up with the signing in for two weeks. It hasn’t worked in months. I am forced to sign in everyday, sometimes multiple times a day.

I wish it worked.

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gasmodels said: I on the other hand use it daily and it works for me almost every time. Once in a while I have to sign in again but I have the information pre-populated in my browser so when it does appear to fail a simple click resolves the situation.

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David Newton said: It has never worked. It has never worked because it does NOT keep you signed in for two weeks. All that it does is automate signing in again after the 20 minute "security" timeout has kicked in for two weeks.

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Logan Allred said: If we changed the wording to "Remember my sign-in for two weeks", would that make it better for you? I can suggest a wording change to make it more accurate and see how they respond.

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Logan Allred said: Carolyn, do you use the beta site, or wiki or books a lot? Or any third party websites or applications that integrate with FamilySearch account?
If you go to the beta site, it will end your session and give you a new beta session. We are suspicious that occasionally wiki or books are resetting the session, but we don't have a lot of proof yet, just a few anecdotes. We are trying to figure out why this is flaky for some people and not others, there's just not any obvious problems we can quickly see and fix, we have to do some creative investigation. Clearly there is a problem somewhere, we just aren't sure where it is and what triggers it.

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David Newton said: Well the current wording certainly doesn't reflect what is going on. As for possible new wording, how about this?

"Automatically log back in after inactivity timeout for two weeks."

It's a bit more technical, but hopefully at least it wouldn't cause confusion when people still get the security timeout after ticking the box. I'm not sure how to express the concept of what is going on correctly without language of that technical level. What is most vital to communicate is that the 20 minute inactivity timeout still occurs even when the box is ticked, as that appears to me to be causing most of the grief among normal users.