Why is The 1871 England Census not available?
I reported this by email from the Familysearch Android App. Accessing an 1871 census entry brings up a message box telling me to log out. It does this time after time on different entries.
I received a ridiculous reply asking for the URL. From an App?! I am trying to inform them of a problem and I get a message that shows they have not understood me!
Is there a licensing problem with England censuses and other records, or is this a fault?
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All England and Wales census Transcripts, not original sheets, have always been free to view on Familysearch. Most still are. My report was because access to the 1871 transcripts are giving what appears to be a fault message. Again you misconstrue something you should be aware of. And I never reported anything about any arrangement.
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Yes, as discussed elsewhere this is a contractual issue. It seems there was a direct agreement to display these records, but the contract has expired. I am surprised, as I thought all / nearly all of the England & Wales census collections appeared here through an arrangement with Find My Past.
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Perhaps you could expand on comments you have made elsewhere in "Community".
I know you have reported that the arrangement between FamilySearch and the National Archives (or other governmental organisation) has expired, but the screenshot and individual source references suggest FamilySearch were provided with these records courtesy of Find My Past.
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Here's the response from TNA (UK National Archives) to the FOI Act request I sent in November 2021:
- If TNA and FamilySearch International (or a related entity) have put in place a new contract [ given the old contract between them expired on 12 November 2021], I request a copy of this contract.
The National Archives and Family Search have not put a new contract in place. They will no longer publish our images online. They are allowed to present our images in their library reading rooms, which is in line with our general terms and conditions of use of copies of our records, as outlined in the attached document. This is the most recent version, but the principle has been in place for many years.
- Does TNA know of any arrangement or mechanism through which FamilySearch could publish indexes and/or images of the UK censuses and other historical documents, without there being a direct contractual relationship between them and TNA?
The National Archives has no rights in any indexes or transcriptions created by Family Search. That information is their IP and they are free to do as they wish with it.
The same is true of indexes and transcriptions created by other third parties, therefore it is technically possible that there are agreements in place which The National Archives are not privy to.
We only have rights in our images, and onward licensing of said images is not contractually allowed without our knowledge. We cannot find evidence of any third party having such an agreement in place with FamilySearch to publish our images.
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I assume "They are allowed to present our images in their library reading rooms" means that access to the images is allowed in FHCs and/or Affiliate Libraries.
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My report is that on accessing 1871 census TRANSCRIPTS, I get a box open on the APP that appears to be due to a FAULT! if it was a licence problem I would get a screen open saying I need to view it at a History Centre.
It needs to be brought to the attention of the technical team. or at least someone there should check to see what happens when they access the census on a non LDS account via the App.
Non LDS accounts only have access to England census Transcripts. That is why checking it from a LDS account that allows access to originals will not show the fault.
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I will explain it plain English.
Until recently non LDS Familysearch users could access the 1871 England census and view transcripts, not originals. All other censuses allow this for non LDS members, but not access to original sheets.
Over the past week or so, the census does not come up as an option. and on clicking a Task that involves the 1871 census a box opens that is obviously a fault. It is possible the 1871 census access has been accidentally removed from the App. I tried searching Historical Records on the App and it does not come up on that either.
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I hope this uploads a screenshot. I have reported this time after time recently and it is very frustrating when it seems you are not being listened to iof
understood
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So, quoting from A van Helsdingen's comments above (for which we should be very grateful):
"The National Archives has no rights in any indexes or transcriptions created by Family Search. That information is their IP and they are free to do as they wish with it.
The same is true of indexes and transcriptions created by other third parties, therefore it is technically possible that there are agreements in place which The National Archives are not privy to."
This response is (to me) a clear indication that TNA are not restricting the publishing of any indexes on FamilySearch in which:
(1) The organisation had had a part in comping, or
(2) They have published with of permission of, and conjunction with, (in this example) Find My Past.
It is extremely doubtful FamilySearch will provide an explanation of the loss of these records, as - quite understandably - it never discusses details of its contracts. However, unless there has been a misunderstanding here, it looks as if there has been a discontinuation of its agreement with Find My Past to publish these indexed records. Restrictions in viewing the images is another matter, of course, which is not the main topic of conversation here.
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I now realise that your main point is connected with trying to access these records via the App and am sorry I cannot directly address this issue. Nevertheless, if the problem is restricted to your searches involving this particular collection (1871 census) I still feel the comments here have a bearing on the matter.
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I can access the census by Search Historical Records on the App, but not from a Task linked to it, or by searching for it via the Sources page, where it does not even come up.
Yes, I can only see transcripts. I know that as I have been using Familysearch for a long time. They are usually adequate.
I have tried reporting this several times. I got a silly message asking me to send the URL, which you cannot do from an App and referring me here!
No wonder it still doesn't work. How does this get reported to the technical team?
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Any UK census transcription/index created and owned by FamilySearch is now longer subject to the control of TNA. FamilySearch can no longer blame "contracts with record custodians" if they are taken down, because they themselves are the owner/custodian of the transcription. If they have taken any of them down, it's probably part of a deal with Ancestry.com or FindMyPast. However I have no idea which of the UK transcriptions were created by FamilySearch, and which of them they purchased the rights to from the likes of Ancestry.com or FindMyPast.
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You obviously have a problem understanding my report. Please re read this and forward it to the technical department who may understand it better
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Me and @Paul W are ordinary users of FamilySearch. I am also a non-LDS member. We can't forward anything to the Technical Department. You'll have to wait for a FS employee to answer.
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OK. I thought you were LDS employees.
It just seems impossible to report this kind of problem now.
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@Mark McLemore another example of why we need a way to identify staff and ask for staff help.
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I was referred here when trying to report this. I have no way of knowing who the people who reply are. It seems to be good way to fob off complaints so that no action is taken.
It also explains why they removed the Feedback tab on the App after they wrecked the Search function.
The tab took a screenshot and you could send it with a message if you found a problem. Now removed!
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h
Please. someone at Familysearch. look into this problem!
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@kendoughty I understand that you are having this problem when you respond to a record hint on your android Family Tree app.
I am using an iPhone, so won't be able to match, in every detail, the steps that you have taken. There are 2 ways to get the the hints for Clara Carolina Ralph, the first is to find the individual and the hint in the Ancestors with Tasks List; the second is to find the hint on Clara's detail page just above her name. I need to know which approach you used to select the hint.
I can duplicate going to the hint from her details page (aka, person page), but not finding on your Ancestors with Task Lists (obviously, I can only see my own task list).
When I select the hint for Clara, I see a new screen with "England and Wales Census, 1871" below her name. Clicking on the collection title, I am able to see the details for Clara Curling Ralph, from the collection. So, unfortunately I am not seeing your problem.
Looking at the options/suggestions that you are seeing; (1) since you're in FamilySearch, your internet is working, as you were able to access the record by searching the Collection directly; (2) looking at the last item, you would not be able to get to the point that you could see Clara's details without being signed into FamilySearch, so don't think your issue has anything to do with username or password; (3) finally, trying again, later, is always an option - but I suspect that you have already done that.
I would suggest that you try to get to the England & Wales census by clicking the hint that is on Clara's details page. If this is the way that you have tried accessing the hint, then try doing it from the Ancestors Task List. Let us know if anything has changed.
In the meantime, I will attempt to get access to an android phone and see if I can replicate your problem with that.
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@Mike357, one important detail that I think you missed: are you doing all of this with an LDS account or a public one? Try it with a public FS account. I predict you'll replicate Ken's problem.
(I failed Phone, so I'm not trying it.)
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@Mike357 Thank you.
This is one of many occasions where I have clicked the blue icon on a Person page, found a link to the 1871 census, clicked it and got the error. It has happened too many times and I have reported it by email and Feedback with no success.
I am on a public account and notice that if I access Collections from Sources, +, Familysearch, the 1871 does not show up. Also, no Search results will give an 1871 census source.
The 1881 doesn't always come up on search results, either.
I use Familysearch a lot.
It does need checking.
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I've had the same experience as @kendoughty. I'm using a PC, Windows 10, and the problem appears in both Firefox and Chrome. My thread on the topic was moved to Family Tree.
https://community.familysearch.org/en/discussion/115076/unusual-error-message#latest
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I also have the same problem using a Windows PC & Firefox - it is the ONLY UK Census collection I am not able to see transcripts for.
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@kendoughty, thank you for your patience. Researching this further suggests that you are being affected by a known issue with the England and Wales Census, 1871 collection that the engineers are currently working on.
The result that you found on your Android phone seemed to be unique; however, it does fall within the range of faulty responses to a search for this collection.
As the engineers are now working on the problems, we can only wait for their resolution. We have no indication how soon the problem will be resolved.
Thank you, @Julia Szent-Györgyi, you are absolutely right about this being a public account issue.
I will also move this discussion thread to Family Tree. This will not have any affect on the engineering work to resolve the problem.
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@Mike357 It was not so much patience as frustration causing a determination to get through the blockages to get this looked into.
If I find something similar in future how should I report it? I use Familysearch a lot. 14,000 entries and corrections in the past year.
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