England and Wales Census 1871 Problems
Answers
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I do not have a Find My Past subscription, but can access the index, by being a registered user. I identified the record to which @JohnB1952 refers and have pasted a screenshot below. As illustrated in the second screenshot (and which you confirm) the record is still not to be found in FamilySearch. Similar records are there (as you can see), so there is still a problem, but it is does not appear to be a contractual matter.
As a matter of interest I am adding a third screenshot, to illustrate a general search (i.e., not from within the 1871 collection). This confirms no 1871 record is available for this John Readhead - 1851 & 1861 records being found, however, along with other records relating to him.
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@Paul W Thanks. I'll re-open the ticket.
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@ JohnB1952 After sending it back to engineering again, they twiddled something and tell me it is fixed (again). I queried John Readhead born 1802 in Lincolnshire and got the expected result this time:
Would you please search again and see if it works for you? I'll leave the ticket open until you can confirm that the search is now working correctly. Thanks!
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Hopefully @JohnB1952 will be able to now find this record, but I still get a "No Results Found" page. Obviously, I am searching from a public account, so doing so from an LDS one might produce different results. However, the last time a similar issue was reported, this didn't seem to be a factor - different users were getting different outcomes. I've tried searching from within the 1871 collection and made a search without filtering, but still can't find him!
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@Paul W That's strange. I, too, searched with a public account. Search terms: John Readhead, birth 1802, birthplace Lincolnshire and I got results--the image posted above.
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Sorry I have been offline for a little while.
I am still unable to find John Readhead born 1802 Burringham, Lincolnshire searching 1871 Census as a non member.
I can find on FindMyPast - no problem
Thanks @Paul W for your contributions on this problem.
The 1871 Census seems to have been updated Jan 19 2022, but the number of records does not appear to have increased, still standing at 9,950,062, when it should be over 20 million.
Hope this will be resolved sometime
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Sorry, I have been offline for a while.
I am still unable to find John Readhead b1802 Burringham, Lincolnshire, searching the England & Wales 1871 Census on FamilySearch, as a non member.
I can find him on FindMyPast - no problem
The England & Wales 1871 Census on FamilySearch appears to have been updated on Jan 19 2022, but the number of records remains at 9,950,062, when it should be over 20 million.
Thanks @Paul W for your contributions on this topic.
Hope it can be resolved sometime.
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Sorry, I have been offline for a while.
I am still unable to find John Readhead b1802 Burringham, Lincolnshire, searching the England & Wales 1871 Census on FamilySearch, as a non member.
I can find him on FindMyPast - no problem.
The England & Wales 1871 Census on FamilySearch appears to have been updated on Jan 19 2022, but the number of records remains at 9,950,062, when it should be over 20 million.
Thanks @Paul W for your contributions on this topic.
Hope it can be resolved sometime.
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@JohnB1952 Interestingly, I am getting different results today than I got yesterday, so something is messed up for sure. I'll report to engineering and hope they can get to the bottom of things quickly.
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@JohnB1952 Aha! When I pulled up the engineering ticket, I saw that one of the engineers had already found that things are still not working correctly with the 1871 census collection. From what I can decipher in all the tech-speak, it seems that they feel that they have identified the problem and are pursuing solutions.
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Thanks for the feedback. Hopefully they can get it fixed.
Interestingly, there is now no number of records for 1971 Census - just Browse Images:
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JohnB1952 Unfortunately, that is part of the fix. The engineers tell me that the permissions we have for both the 1841 and the 1871 censuses for England and Wales restrict both the indexes and the images to use in a family history center. The closest family history center to me is a 45 minute drive away, so I have not been down there to see what is what if signed in on a center computer.
That said, I am still able to search the index using a public account and can see results for a family surname of interest to me (but still can't find our old friend, John Readhead). BUT, when I click to view the record details page, I get a message "We're unable to show this record to you...." Rather suboptimal, especially since it makes no mention of family history centers. If you can't see the record info, being able to search doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. But I assume they are doing it that way so that you can at least see the summary and decide whether it is worth a trip to a family history center to see more.
Engineers indicated to pull all of the records into compliance with the contract, so I'm giving it a week before pestering them again.
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Oh, dear - that can be the problem with reporting certain issues. Now it appears that all indexed records (for 1841 and 1871 collections) could well disappear from FamilySearch in the near future!
I discovered a "hidden" source for certain images relating to the 1861 E&W census, which (contractually) should not have been on the FamilySearch website. I wanted to share this information, but was afraid that the images would be pulled once someone at FamilySearch (or FMP) was aware! It looks like that has now happened, regardless. Never mind, once the pandemic gets more under control in my area I'll be able to view the images (for all E&W collections) at my local public library or FHC.
Thanks for the further update, @N Tychonievich
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@N Tychonievich Thanks agian for the feedback.
I do not understand the permissions, although I realise that you have to abide by any contracts.
Have these contractual agreements changed over the past year?
The whole of the England & Wales 1871 Census used to be available to search.
Refer back to John Readhead at the top of this post - I personally attached the 1871 Census record from FamilySearch records June 24 2021.
All seems very strange to me.
Copy to @Paul W
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@JohnB1952 I'll explain as much as I know about contracts and changes in access. I'm not a person who is involved in contract negotiations nor do I have the ability to see what is in contracts. But, I can give you general information.
First, FamilySearch does not own the records posted on our website. Those records are owned by various record custodians: archives, governments, churches, individual authors. FamilySearch gets the records in a couple of ways. We offer to capture digital images of the records in our ongoing efforts to preserve records. Or sometimes organizations ask us to capture the images. We provide the owning institution with a copy of the digitized records and we ask for permission to share the images with the users of FamilySearch.org. And we ask about indexing said records and making the indexes available.
Some choose to let us share freely. Others don't for various reason: privacy laws; a desire to obtain revenue by providing access on another website or directly from a government repository; a prior arrangement with a commercial family history website that has obtained sole rights to display the records....
Those contracts are subject to change over time, sometimes opening up access (in which case nobody complains) and sometimes tightening access (in which case we get lots of complaints). We have seen a decrease in records from the UK that are available to users of FamilySearch recently. I do not know the reason. I could speculate, but speculation is rarely helpful.
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Further to the comments by @N Tychonievich, you will find, it common with most other organisations, FamilySearch does not reveal the detail of its contracts. It appears to have a reciprocal arrangement with Find My Past, however. So, when I have used the FMP website I have found it will cite certain records as being the property of FamilySearch. In the case of the England & Wales census collections, Find My Past has the direct contract with the governmental office concerned, then a separate arrangement with FamilySearch to share those records. When there is an update, FMP apparently does all the work in transferring the revised collection(s) to FamilySearch. In this particular case, I am speculating but it appears FMP is now reducing access of the census records it makes available (or has made available in the past) to FamilySearch. I believe this could lead to, say, all the 1871 indexed records being withheld in future, but we will just have to wait and see, as it is highly unlikely a FamilySearch employee will provide specific details on the matter, for reasons stated.
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On 12 November 2021, the contract between TNA (UK National Archives- the owner/custodian of the UK censuses) and FamilySearch expired. This contract gave FS the right to publish the Images of UK Censuses at FHCs, Affiliate Libraries and to members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The relationship between the two is now governed by general terms and conditions (not a contract) that permit FamilySearch to make the images available at FHCs and Affiliate Libraries. Any Indexes that FamilySearch themselves created are their own property and they can keep publishing those if they wish. This I learned by contacting TNA myself and making a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request. However some of the Indexes come from FindMyPast, and there's a partnership between FS and FMP that may affect FS's ability to publish the Indexes.
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@N Tychonievich @A van Helsdingen @Paul W
Thanks for your responses.
I suppose we will have to live with what we have.
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I have been having 1871 specific issues too and have many examples, there is some sort of privilege issue specific to parts of the 1871 census, a lot of Cornwall is affected (if you search the 1871 census for Cornwall you only get East Cornwall around Plymouth) - in most cases the related 1871 census entries aren't found so are 'invisible'- but there are wider issues affecting other areas too.
For example - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q273-KLW1?from=lynx1UIV8&treeref=GD51-TQL shows a related 1871 census but if you click that link it is denied.
"We're unable to show this record to you.
This record can only be displayed on certain accounts. FamilySearch must honor the agreements we have with our partners, record owners, and internal policies."
Clearly a permissions issue.
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I don't think I have ever encountered a similar issue (an "invisible" record) to that described.
In cases where a record has been withdrawn the usual situation is to find a message to that affect when trying to open via "View source" - one such comment being that the record has been "retired", another being a "! 410 - Record removed" message.
As stated previously, it will now be an anxious wait to see if/when the whole of the 1871 E&W indexed collection disappears.
Further to @A van Helsdingen's comments, I don't recall seeing any 1871 record that has not been shown as being available courtesy of "Find My Past", but perhaps I am mistaken in assuming the whole collection is subject to the same agreement.
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Further to my comments above, it appears I probably am mistaken, as the citation shown (in records to which there is still access) does not mention findmypast - the name only appearing in relation to how to view the images. See example below:
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I too have problems accessing the indexes (I'm not after the images). A few months ago I visited and noted the URL for the 1871 census record for John Godley, https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBX2-B74. On trying to re-access it I get the message
"We're unable to show this record to you.
This record can only be displayed on certain accounts. FamilySearch must honor the agreements we have with our partners, record owners, and internal policies."
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You have reminded me to carry out sample checks - hopefully, later today - in order to ascertain what still remains of 1871 census indexed records, here on FamilySearch. Unfortunately, FreeCEN coverage is very patchy, so it appears subscription websites like Find My Past and Ancestry are the only sources available mow for much of England & Wales 1871 census.
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The message I received when attempting to access 'check image availabilty' - indicates you should be able to access that link at FHC (FamilySearch Family History Center) or FAL (FamilySearch Affiliate Library)
Generally the Collection Citation (found under Document Information> Collection Information at left) does indicate current image licensing is found at FindMyPast (I would just wish that were on the message to begin with):
"England and Wales Census, 1871." Database with images. FamilySearch. http://FamilySearch.org : 19 February 2022. From "1871 England, Scotland and Wales census." Database and images. findmypast. http://www.findmypast.com : n.d. Citing PRO RG 10. The National Archives, Kew, Surrey.
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I don't know how much longer any of the 1871 census indexed records will remain online.
To get some idea of the current FamilySearch content, I just searched for any "John Smith" within the 1871 collection and was presented with just 8 results! (See https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&q.givenName=john&q.residenceDate.from=1871&q.residenceDate.to=1871&q.residencePlace=england&q.residencePlace.exact=on&q.surname=smith&f.collectionId=1538354 and screenshot).
It appears Find My Past is no longer updating FamilySearch with these records, so they are just disappearing. A search from the collection itself only allows for images to be found - these being presented under folder numbers and only available to view (from a public account) at a FHC or FS Affiliate Library.
I note that index searches are still available directly from the collection for all other 1841-1911 E&W census collections.
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Has this issue been resolved yet? I first noticed it months ago.
I've been able to access 1871 census records before, as I've cited some of them on WikiTree profiles that I've built. For example: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KZLT-6RB
But now I get this message:
"We're unable to show this record to you.
This record can only be displayed on certain accounts. FamilySearch must honor the agreements we have with our partners, record owners, and internal policies."
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It appears the last of the remaining indexed records relating to the 1871 census have now disappeared. From my public account, today I was unable to replicate my search, as illustrated in the screenshot of my post dated February 26.
Certain images are still available if you are at a FHC or Affiliate library. Otherwise, I can find no way of accessing these records through FamilySearch. It appears this is a contractual issue - especially if the indexed records were provided by Find My Past - but I doubt if you will be provided of confirmation of this.
A shame the FreeCEN website has only limited coverage of the 1871 census, as its index and transcriptions are very well presented and pasting a URL in the Family Tree "Sources" section (of your relative, etc.) provides a link directly to the actual transcription page.
The loss of these census records from FamilySearch will be of great disappointment to many researchers.
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I am a non LDS member and am suddenly having a problem with the 1871 census also.
Does this mean this is not a bug but rather a change in contractual rights which will not be resolved?
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Hi Sam
I just replicated this. Something is still not right with the 1871 collection, in spite of its "reinstatement" last week. In my case, I just cannot find my ancestor's 1871 record (through Search) - although it has remained attached to his profile, since I attached it in 2014.
The screenshot below shows there are still several millions of records missing. (There should be 20 million +):
Would be grateful for your further help in identifying at least two separate problems here: the apparent unavailability of some records from a public account, as well as records still not available from Church accounts, either.
Thanks.
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Thanks for reporting this @Paul W! I will have someone look into it and see what is going on.
Can you tell me what record you are searching? It will give us an example to work from.
EDIT: I just checked the count like the image you provided and it looks updated. There are 22.9M showing now. So maybe it was a matter of them all getting loaded.
Sam 😊
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