Permission Problem
I realize that there are some very explainable (albeit rather technical) reasons behind why we get these messages under certain known sceanrios.
and the underlying complex issues surrounding it.
but to most users (especially newbies and non techs) - this message and image seem very out of place - and almost verging on not appropriate (not the norm) for FamilySearch.
It also looks VERY un-professional.
while you at FS are working out the main underlying issue - - can we at least clean up the message and image to be something a little less cryptic and obtuse.
Answers
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I agree we could use a much more appealing image to let people know they have encountered an issue in reaching the desired web page.
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I've posted other examples of what but after seeing comments about why this occurs, I think something similar to the following would cover about 99% of the cases and should implemented:
(And apologize for any more typos.)
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Corrections: "question", "escalated", "all", and "apologize".
Yeah, I'm a pedant. :-)
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Boy, I was careless, going way too fast, and apparently didn't proofread at all. I really can spell. To make matters worse, Photoshop doesn't have spell checking! This is so embarrassing that I am going to edit my post and make both your post, Julia, and this one look really confusing.
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Your suggestion looks good. You need to post it in feedback at the bottom of the page.
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No need to post to Feedback because all the feedback button does these days is send you to this board. Try this, @DebDT, and you will see the new process. It really doesn’t seem to matter if something is posted under Q&A/Help Center (I wish they would decide what to call it so I don’t have to type so much) or Ideas.
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Feedback sent me to Ideas just now.
Despite the difference in tools (up/down votes versus a like button, "did this answer your question" nonsense), I think even FamilySearch can't really figure out the difference between Ideas and Q and A, which is a clear sign that they should not be separate.
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FamilySearch has an thought about the difference between ideas and Q & A. They believe that Q & A are those issues that support or other users might answer. These are issues about how to do something, how to find something or that purpose of something in Family Search. These area is being reviewed by support personnel and they will attempt to answer using help center articles or similar responses.
Ideas on the other hand should be issues about other changes or modification to the FamilySearch site. In addition when the system is not working as expected these issues can be reported in ideas. This section is supposed to be being watched by FamilySearch employees rather that support - Some support will post in the area but usually they are more experienced.
The above is a brief description of what the differentiation between the two sections is for FamilySearch. Obviously there are posts in each area that probably should be in the opposite area. In addition, because of the change numerous mistakes are going to be made by support personnel until the become familiar with the new method of providing support
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yes - Im sure a lot of peple have thought about the division - but the boundary they make is totally "artificial"
The real question is not what FS is trying to seperate - even though they may have the best of reasons and intentions.
the real question is - when a USER goes to use community - will they intuitively understand the difference
and 9 time out of 10 - NO they will not.
People can debate till they are blue about how things SHOULD be sliced and diced
but if the general FS Communtiy user - doesnt "get it" - you still end up with a VERY large portion of users using the system - the way the powers that be - never wanted it to be used.
the system should be designed - so the average users knows how to use it thru intuition - not through having to be told what to do or not do.
People go on to Amazon every day - and use the system without being told exactly how to do it - it is built in an intuitive way - without too many confusing, ambiguous, duplicative paths.
The intuition of the average user should be driving the solution . . .
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gasmodels wrote:
They believe that Q & A are those issues that support or other users might answer. These are issues about how to do something, how to find something or that purpose of something in Family Search. These area is being reviewed by support personnel and they will attempt to answer using help center articles or similar responses.
Ideas on the other hand should be issues about other changes or modification to the FamilySearch site. In addition when the system is not working as expected these issues can be reported in ideas.
The problem is that this requires users to already know the answer in order to get an answer: if you can't get the system to do something, how do you know whether it's because you're doing it wrong (Q and A), or because the system doesn't do that (Idea)?
As I've said in a couple of different places here, suggestions and questions are two sides of a single coin. Trying to get users to tell them apart is bound to fail All The Time.
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maybe I don't think like most users but in response to your hypothetical situation where you cannot get the system to do something, I would simply go to the Q & A section and ask how do I --- and explain what you want to do. If it is possible someone should provide some instructions as to how you can complete the task. If it is not possible because of system design then you should get that response. If you then have a suggestion to add a new capability to the system you could go to the idea section and start a new thread suggesting what you would like to see added to the system ( there is no guarantee that you will get any response to the idea). You may get comments from other users. To me that is a very logical way to go.
- Always ask a question first if you are not sure. Then you will know if the function exists.
- If it does you should find out how to accomplish the task
- If it does not - you are free to suggest a change in Ideas
What does not make sense is to post questions such as "how do I ....... " in ideas they only confuse
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@Dennis J Yancey , @gasmodels . , @Gordon Collett, @Julia Szent-Györgyi Thank you all for raising this as an issue (permission problem). We're working on a solution that would leave the post intact and visible. We still need some time to finalize the details and will have more information available early next week.
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@Dennis J Yancey I wholeheartedly agree. I'd love to hear your thoughts on how the site design could be more intuitive. Would you mind sharing your thoughts on the most impactful changes that could be made to make the experience more intuitive?
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I guess the even greater question is
why do things need to be moved in the first place (which if I understand correctly is the root cause)
Posts should be kept where they were originally placed - otherwise it causes chaos.
appreciate your help in the solution!!!
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In my mind this is like a classic scenario - of where changes are made - to appease operational type needs
and missing the need and the most probable actions/reactions of system users.
not just this subject - but many others discussed - seem to be the result of various cases where something
appears perfectly logical and intentional and needed from a admin/support perspective
but the people designing - arent taking into consideration - - what the most probable path for the end user and how that will clash or defeat the plan of the design.
the fracture of Community - into so many sections - Q/A, Groups, IDEAS, CHAT and more that the end user gets totally overwhelmed with the simple question of "how do I ask for help" - and because they have so many options - they are almost CERTAIN to post something in the area - that realy isnt the best/preferred location for their type of question.
So even though designers had the greatest intentions and plans that worked on paper - I fear they did not nearly take enough into account - of what will happen when milliions of users get faced with a system they are new to - that has MANY overlapping processes.
and its not just a matter of time for people to learn . . . . In Communtiy - there will always be hundreds of people who are new and never enough time to train them all as to what they should be doing . . .
RATHER the system should be intuitive enough - and consolidated enough - and with as little ovrerlap
so that even the average users - can get things right as to where to go to get help.
without illogical and confusing messages like this.
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Dennis
The basic reason some threads need to be moved is they will have specific information which is private needed to solve the issue being raised. Some examples are missing ordinances, issues with living people that can only be seen with helper information etc. This personal private information needs to be protected and the current procedure is to move these into an area where the discussion is not visible and therefore the information is not made public. I am sure you can agree with that need. Since there are no other case management tools to keep track of an individual request the solution was to move threads of this type to "hidden groups".
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there are surely way s of handling that without having to move the entire thread
lets think out of the box a bit . . . .
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@Mark McLemore I agree with what Dennis J Yancey said in his 2nd post immediately below Mark's post.
In my view, part of the reason people people are confused is lack of information about where to post and what the various categories are meant to cover. It seems to me probable that even people in Family Search do not know. Currently even the brief description which are there are sometimes not accurate. Full descriptions with examples are totally lacking.
It must also be considered that unless you are familiar with the terminology used by Family Search your understanding of what is meant from the current wording may be quite different. For example people ask in Q and A/FamilyTree, genealogical questions thinking Family Tree is about THEIR family tree, whereas as far as I am aware (but not 100% certain) genealogical questions should go in Q and A/Search. Also some people have been told to post in FamilySearch Community, so as soon as they see the wording FamilySearch Community they post there.
I think there should be a Family Search Community Home page which sets out in DETAIL what various categories are about and gives EXAMPLES where frequently asked questions should go. This should be a page properly laid out, not in Forum format and the information should be displayed in front of you so it is immediately obvious. There should also be some indication of category for some matters such as FamilySearch Digital Library and books in the FHL which currently do not seem to be covered at all. I am sure there must be other topics similarly not covered. ALL NEW queries/Ideas/Groups should be channeled through this home page, so that this information is viewed by all posting.
When a person actually goes to post a question, a "box" should come up with a description of the type of queries or ideas which are envisaged for this category and a question then asked along the lines " Is this the right category for your question". For specific categories there could be addition wording relating to questions which are often posted in the wrong category. If yes, the post can continue. If no, default back to the description of the various categories. Perhaps there will be those who consider that this is a useless step, that people will say yes to anything and continue to post anywhere.
Overall, I feel if there was more information provided, and ALL NEW queries/Ideas/Groups were channelled to ONE page with the information, there would be an improvement.
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Further to the above, another category that seems to get many posts which are moved is Indexing. This definitely needs some explanatory text to indicate that it is for people currently working on Indexing Batches. Perhaps it could be renamed Indexing Batches.
There should be an explanation that once a collection of indexed records has been made available if the question is about incorrect indexing, then the question should be posted (as far as I can tell) in Q and A/Search.
In addition I have noticed that some people appear to think that 'Indexing' has a vague diffuse meaning such as Records, and they place genealogical questions which also should be posted (as far as I can tell) in Q and A/Search.
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I agree with Maureen regarding clarifying the purposes of using the "Indexing" section, when posting "indexing" issues.
Before it was discontinued, I posted comments in the Indexing section of "Groups", only to be advised by a moderator that that section was only meant to be used by indexers, specifically in relation to queries on the batch(es) they were dealing with - project instructions issues, etc.
In fact, each of the sub-sections under "Q and A" and "Ideas" should be headed with clear advice on what is appropriate to be posted to that particular area of "Community". That might save the time of moderators, who are currently moving so many questions / discussions to the "correct" section.
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Hey Folks - the permission problem should no longer be an issue. We've adjusted our process so that we are not moving posts to a location that is inaccessible. Posts can and will be escalated if/as needed, but not moved.
Regarding the other discussion points in this thread, I've taken note of the other topics raised in this thread and will take these items back to the team for discussion.
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Great news, thank you!
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It's August 1st and I just tried to access a post to get an answer on the proper way to index a particular field and I get the "Permission Problem. You don't have permission to do that." message.
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