Regarding Australia, Victoria—Wills and Probate Records, 1880–1998 [Part A]
I've been attempting to index batches in this project and the projects instructions are incredibly ambiguous and confusing. The batch I attempted to index had 20 pages. I came across several court cover pages and affidavits, none of which were for the actual will itself. All of them were affidavits of various persons somehow connected to the estate of the deceased, e.g. spouse, executor, children, solicitors, etc. Not one of the documents were for the actual will of the decedent. Part of the projects instructions say:
- Will and probate documents often continue from one page to another and from one image to the next. Index only the will or probate cover page and the page of the probate or will on which the name of the deceased first appears. Any image that shows only additional pages of the same document should be marked in Step 1: Images as No, No Extractable Data.
Comparing these instructions to the actual images only generates confusion. Each document starts with a cover page followed by an affidavit. Some of the cover pages are an "Affidavit of Surety" among other things. All the cover pages start with "In the Estate of" followed by the decedent's name, but almost all are not the will itself, only some form of affidavit. With the instructions saying, "Index only the will or probate cover page and the page of the probate or will on which the name of the deceased first appears," would mean that almost all the batches would be marked No, No Extractable Data.
So far, after several months, only 56% of the batches have been indexed and only 3% reviewed. I believe that this is because the instructions are ambiguous and do not make sense.
Best Answer
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The instructions show in the How To Index a Handwritten Probate Record that documents that begin with "In the Will of (decedent)" that you index the first page of those. I think " in the will of " would be the same as "In the Estate of. I also think that the example of the Probate Justification is the same as an Affidavit of Surety since an Affidavit of Justification is also referred to as a Surety's Guarantee.
There are many types of affidavits in Probate Records: Affidavits of Due Execution, Affidavit of Justification (Surety's Guarantee), Affidavit of Verification (Administration Account) or (Renunciation of Probate) and Affidavit of Executor. All of these are Probate Records so they should be indexed, with the cover sheet and first page where the deceased name is found.
The instructions say:
- Index all probate records, including wills and inheritance tax records.
- Do not index other types of documents, such as inventories, real estate or property information, or letters and correspondence about a will. If an image shows only these types of documents, mark it in Step 1: Images as No, NoExtractable Data.
Also buried deep in the instructions is more information about indexing the date:
- Will and probate dates may be written at the start or end of the document, and documents may span many pages. Be sure to check adjacent images for the date before marking the date fields blank.
Possibly the reason for the low review rate is so many are having to be returned for reindexing or they are being reviewed three times before heading off to FamilySearch for a final review.
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Answers
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So, the first of 20 pages, is a Probate Jurisdiction for Patrick Ginnane, "In the estate of".
Page 2-4 is a continuation, still refers to Patrick.
Page 5, 6, 7, is the will of his wife.
pages 8-20 are probate and wills for other people, none of which carry the name of Ginnane.
Do I only index pages 1-7? what do I do with all the other pages? No extractable data?
Thank you
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Along the same lines; I have 3 pages on a will. Data is on all 3 pages, but not all the data. Do I find all the data and only enter it on the first page? Or enter whatever data is on each page? I've done a few of these, and now I'm not sure I did them right. Maybe I should just not do this.
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It would be better to see the batch, but, according to the instructions:
Index only the will or probate cover page and the page of the probate or will on which the name of the deceased first appears. Any image that shows only additional pages of the same document should be marked in Step 1: Images as No, No Extractable Data.
So, in your example, you index page 1, mark 2-4 No Extractable Data (NED), index the 1st page of the wife's will (presumably image 5), Mark 6 and 7 NED.
If the probate documents and wills have the names of the other people who are deceased, then they would have the 1st pages indexed as well.
As for the 3 pages on a will, this instruction applies:
- Will and probate dates may be written at the start or end of the document, and documents may span many pages. Be sure to check adjacent images for the date before marking the date fields blank.
So, if on one of the 2 other pages there is a death date, a probate date, or even an alias or name variation, you would fill in that information on the first entry and then mark the next 2 pages NED.
I'm not sure why you have a batch with so many images. I've only seen 2 to 4 images per batch. It sounds like this one was not properly batched. Will you share the batch by giving us the batch code? That is the sequence of letters and numbers between the brackets after the title [M39X-KZ1}. Like this: Australia, Victoria—Wills and Probate Records, 1880–1998 [Part A][M39X-KZ1]
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Australia, Victoria—Wills and Probate Records, 1880–1998 [Part A][M3SX-95N]
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Ok, thank you for your help. I'm pretty sure I've been doing it wrong, sorry.
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The project instructions do say to only index the will or probate cover and the first page after that mentions the person's name. This will help the researcher find the packet/batch and then he will see the additional pages.
This can be confusing to the indexer but just remember all the information will be available to the researcher and is easily found!
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Thanks for sharing your batch, @JoriLyon ! That is incredible. The ones I have been doing in the same project have 2 - 4 images. This one was probably not done correctly in the batching process.
Anyway, here is what I would do if I had this batch:
Index image 1 just like the example: You have a name and a place.
Index Image 2: You have the deceased's name, gender, a death date (Dec 25 1913), and can take the date of probate and place from Image 3 on the sworn statement.
- (Per the instruction: Will and probate dates may be written at the start or end of the document, and documents may span many pages. Be sure to check adjacent images for the date before marking the date fields blank.)
Images 3 and 4 are No, No Extractable Data (NED).
Image 5 is indexed as a will cover: Mary Goldsmith, Female, Will or probate Year 1914.
Image 6 is indexed. Name, date of will is Jan 19 1914.
Image 7 is marked NED.
Image 8 is indexed with the Name of Arthur Goldstraw.
Image 9 is indexed with his name and the probate date of Mar 16 1914.
Image 10 is marked NED
The next 10 images follow the same type of pattern.
I hope this helps. Ask more questions if it doesn't. No worries if you have been doing it wrong. When a project is slow to be reviewed, but, fast to be indexed, my experience has been that the project instructions were confusing.
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Thank you so much for this answer! I have been wondering what the outcome of doing this stage of the indexing would lead to.....I like to know what the end result is, makes it easier to understand why I'm doing this part of the indexing.
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Thank you all for posting and answering these questions.
I have been initially indexing and now reviewing batches and I totally agree that the instructions are unclear about exactly what needs to be indexed in terms of records (which affidavits etc). I can see from reviewing that there are very many approaches being taken 🤔.
There area few things I would value your communal help on.
Firstly @Melissa S Himes how did you view that batch that @JoriLyon shared.
BTW I have come across many batches with 20 images and multiple individuals.
Secondly, about indexing date and place data from cover pages, am I right in my understanding that:
- the cover page of a will generally has a date but no place other than the deceased's residence (don't use that) and the filing solicitor (which I think we don't use) - so when indexed, the cover page typically has a name and date with no place
- the cover page of a probate document such as an Affidavit of Executor will typically have a filing stamp (which is not to be used for date or place) and the location of the solicitor filing the documents (which I also think is not to be used) - so when indexed, the cover page just has the deceased name with no date or place
- on the cover page of a probate document sometimes there will be a hand written note "granted" with a date - so that can be used as the probate date but no place
Thirdly, I am still not sure if all of the affidavits (and their covers) relating to a probate matter need to be indexed. The instructions say "Do not index other types of documents, such as inventories, real estate or property information, or letters and correspondence about a will..." do these count as letters and correspondence?
It would be really helpful if the examples in the project instructions covered indexing that was not obvious.
And finally, is this correct:
- when indexing the actual will there is typically a name and date but no place (because we do not index place of residence)
- and when indexing an affidavit there is typically a name, date and place sworn - is the place sworn to be indexed? It may differ for different affidavits for the same deceased.
Many thanks in advance for your help
Julia
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The last one I worked on had 17 images if I remember correctly and yes I struggled. So yes there are som e big batches.
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First, let me mention about how we see a shared batch. @Ontymay, the one that Jori Lynn shared is no longer be available because once they are submitted, they can no longer be seen. I will share one that I have in my queue and have started reviewing. It will be up until August 29, 2021.
Australia, Victoria—Wills and Probate Records, 1880–1998 [Part A][M395-K8K]
The batch code is [M395-K8K]. In order to view the batch, click on the gear (wheel) next the My Batches on your main indexing page. Click on Open Shared Batch and put that code in the box. Click Enter. The batch will come up. If you have an image open, you can also click on Help, Open Shared Batch and enter the code there.
For some folks, they like to just be able to click on the link to the batch - so here it is!
https://www.familysearch.org/indexing/batch/b77b7af2-a0c9-4e7d-b983-70dd8102bcbe
I think you are spot on about the covers based on the example. They only index what is on the cover page.
The actual will or probate documents would have a date indexed and sometimes a place. We can look at the final page of a will or probate document to get that information which is generally the last line of the will and the in the sworn statement portion.
- "Will and probate dates may be written at the start or end of the document, and documents may span many pages. Be sure to check adjacent images for the date before marking the date fields blank."
I think the example on How to Index a Handwritten Probate Document is misleading - if not wrong. They index the date of the will (1899) instead of indexing the date of the probate document. The date of the probate document is on the next example which is correctly marked "No, No Extractable Data", but why didn't they use the 1902 date? It makes no sense because the probate document should have the date it was created or sworn to, not the date of the Last Will and Testament as it will bear the date it was created and sworn to.
- "Index the place where the will or probate was created or sworn to."
Alas, I follow the project instructions in this case and don't question it because at least the researcher will find the image and be able to read it for themselves. "The completed index and links to digital images will be freely accessible online to the general public when the collection is published."
The examples give us a good idea of what should be indexed when it comes to probate documents. I have seen the types of documents we do not index, but, in my opinion, they are very sporadic. Granted I haven't done a huge amount of these and my progress only shows a little over 200 entries, but, I have only seen 2 letters of correspondence and 1 real estate inventory. I did send quite a few batches back for reindexing in the beginning, hoping that someone would notice a problem (if the review numbers don't already show that!). Now I am completing them and hoping the next reviewer agrees.
In my most humble opinion, what this project needs now is some information in the "What To Look For While Reviewing" portion of the Project Instructions.
The instructions for Part B which is only 2% indexed need to be reviewed. At least the probate document example is correct now, but, now they have incorrectly identified the Will Place by using the address of the witness instead of a place the might be indicated in a witness statement. There is no "place of presence" indicated in the sworn statement of this example.
Witnesses of wills aren't always from the place the will was created. A witness could be Cousin Jane from New Jersey who sailed in to take care of Aunt Susie who is on her deathbed in Melbourne. In this example they use the physical address of the Solicitor who may have come from Melbourne to the home of Mr. Seabrook in Malvern to create his will. If you can't use the residence of the principal, why would you use the residence of the witness? "Do not index the residence place in this field. Do not index the place of court often listed in a header or the filing place stamped on the document."
I am going to be working on this shared batch on and off for the next few days. It expires on August 30th so I will be submitting it on August 29th! Maybe we can use it for a great discussion too! Please look at it and let me know what you think needs to be done or what I have done incorrectly! We learn from one another.
Wouldn't it be spectacular if a project manager would come along, introduce themself as such, and give us some pointers on how to work on these complex batches? Wishes do come true, sometimes!
Happy Indexing and Reviewing!
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Hi Melissa,
Thanks so much for your response - that makes sense why I could not see the previously shared batch 😄
Since we are both reviewing I thought I would have a look at the batch you have shared and see how I would review it.
P1 I would have indexed Richmond as Will or Probate Place as it appears at the top of the will under the date, Rowena Parade is in Richmond
P2 - no probate date and place (don't use filing stamps to index)
P3 - yes Surrey Hills, Victoria (place sworn shown on P4)
P4 - NED under Step 1:Images setting (it's the second page of the affidavit of bond)
P5 - I would index sex as Male (because title is Rev and at the time there were no women ordained as ministers)
P6 - yes year is 1910 (date at end of will on P8)
P7, 8 - NED under Step 1:Images setting (continutation of will)
P9 - yes there is no will place (don't use place of residence)
P10 - NED under Step 1:Images setting
P11 - yes there is no will place (don't use place of residence)
P12 - yes - it's a codicil but with no will date
P13 - yes no will place (same as P9 &11)
P14 - yes date is 1910 from the top of the cover not 1913 from the stamp, and no place (don't use the stamp)
P15 - agree with all
P16 - yes date is 1911 - same reasoning as P14
P17 - no will place (don't use residence and Lancefield is residence of a witness)
P18 - no probate date or place (don't use the stamp)
P19 - Probate place is Hamilton, Victoria (from P20)
P20 - NED under Step 1:Images setting
They index the date of the will (1899) instead of indexing the date of the probate document.
I agree there is no direction on which date to index when both are available - I have indexed the probate date since it is a probate document and not a will an researchers can always read the document and find the will date for themselves. Also, it is a more helpful date for researchers as it is generally closer to the date of death whereas the will can be made at any time in the person's life.
Wouldn't it be spectacular if a project manager would come along, introduce themself as such, and give us some pointers on how to work on these complex batches? Wishes do come true, sometimes!
Yes it would be wonderful. I feel so sorry for all the people who are basically wasting their time indexing incorrectly, when I come along and essentially redo their work. It is certainly making for slow progress in this project.
I must say I am very glad to have found this chat - I feel better that I am actually doing things right 🙂
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Good Morning, @Ontymay!
I am so happy you took a look and created such as great post - and we agree on all but 2 of 20 fields. For those following along, I have not reviewed P17 - P-20, but agree with Ontymay on each decision. I did miss blanking the probate date and place on Image 2, but would also do the same. This was a really well-done batch, except for image 12 where the last person didn't notice it was a codicil so I had to index that one. I am not certain if marking images as Yes, or No, extractable data immediately sends them to another indexer or not. I think it should.
So with that, for the batch, I think Ontymay and have an agreement rate of around 99% - (2 fields out of 160 possibilities). We also agree that the instruction to use the will date instead of the probate date on the example for the Probate Document could be wrong.
Now, where we somewhat disagree is on Image 1. Ontymay would have indexed Richmond as the Will Place. I would not because I considered that the residential address. As a notary public, I witnessed a lot of wills and power of attorney at the hospital bed, and I was thinking about that when I reviewed this image. Where was this woman when this will was created or sworn to - at her daughters, in a hotel, in a hospital? I suppose that is why I am committed to only using the place in the sworn to statement or if the will states where it was created and marked the field <blank>.
The second place we disagree is on Image 5. Ontymay would index the sex as Male because it says Reverend and at the time there were no ordained ministers who were women. Also a good point because the field help says we can use other language in the document to determine gender. But, I think that means words like his, her, him, his wife, her husband, widow, spinster, bachelor, etc. We usually don't use occupation to determine gender, except when the projects instructions say to, like in the Australian census. So, I can again say that in this case, we might both be right. Australians who were indexing the census would be accustom to using the occupation and the dating of a document as "other evidence in the language" and those in the US might not be as lenient.
I am very pleased that we have this opportunity to critique the work, and learn from one another! It does make you wonder if you are on the right track when working alone in the vacuum of your home. It is great to get other opinions! I hope collaboration like this continues in the Indexing Community!
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Hi @Melissa S Himes thanks for going through that. I am so glad we are in agreement on most fields. I will proceed with confidence and regret when I substantially redo someone else's work😭
I do take your point about Richmond as will place. My thinking was that the form of the will was not standard and more like you would see on a letter. So it could be more safely interpreted as the place where the rest of the letter (will) was written. I try to allow location whenever possible as it helps researchers find individuals.
Actually I think it's a shame that we are not indexing residential place of deceased in this project. It would help researchers so much to find an individual.
Wrt using other language to determine sex. We can use Mr and Mrs so I think other titles are ok too. For example, religious titles Sister, Rev, and honorific titles Sir, Lady.
I would only use occupation where it indicates sex, such as laundress or cattleman. These terms definitely indicated the sex of the person. I would not use occupations such as farmer, miner or grocer, that were mostly, but not exclusively, carried out by a single sex.
Have a great day
Julia
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Julia, it looks like we made some headway on getting the examples looked at on Part B! You will see the other post.
I agree that it would be nice to be able to index the residential place in the will. Maybe they will reconsider that when they review Part B instructions. Although I don't have much hope because on other Will projects I have worked on we weren't allowed to index the residence either.
Unless the project instructions tell us to use occupation to determine gender, we really aren't supposed to. But, at this point, a 99.98% agreement is FANTASTIC. We shall keep plugging along and hope Part B is indexed better than Part A.
Good collaborating with you. I look forward to working with you via private messaging if we run into anything we need another set of eyes on.
Happy Indexing!
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Hello Bryce. We are indexing the cover sheet and 1st page of a will or probate document. If any information from the will or probate document is on an adjacent image, then we take the information from that image and enter the data on the 1st page entry for the document. So, in your example, if there was information missing from Image 2 that was on Image 3, you would enter that data on image 2 and mark Image 3, No, No Extractable Data.
The project instructions say:
- Will and probate dates may be written at the start or end of the document, and documents may span many pages. Be sure to check adjacent images for the date before marking the date fields blank.
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Is it just me or have the Victorian Probate projects [A] and [B] just been pulled?😱 I feel really sad for the people who had indexed the over 20k records that were waiting or had been reviewed. @Melissa S Himes I don't know if these is good or not.
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This is good! Hopefully they are reviewing the instructions and making some changes. What I have seen happen in cases like this is they will either add a pop-up that will better explain the instructions, change the instructions and field helps, and work on the examples, or we will never see the projects again. Time will tell. I hope that they will be back. It was a very nice project, just needed some attention.
The ones that had been indexed will probably not be erased, but at least the reviewers can start "singing from the same hymnbook" and get the project moving along.
Fingers crossed and looking forward to working with you again, @Ontymay
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