Does anyone know why these Sersheim Church record images are not available at the FHL? I was connect
Answers
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It is a more "politically correct" /unhelpful version of the previous wording
""Sign in to Familysearch.org as a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints".
This in itself was somewhat vague but essentially means that these records are only available for Church members
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When you see the sign that says you may see it on another site, it indicates the FHL may be under contract with that site to only show it at one of their centers. It does not mean this is only visible to members of the Church, only that the FHL is honoring its commitment to its genealogical partners.
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@Bill Fitzpatrick
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Bill
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FYI
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Short Answer: You NEED to be using a FHL "Computer", NOT just the WiFi.
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Please be aware that ...
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Using the "WiFi" at, either,
(1) the "Family History Library" (FHL)
.... of the Church, in "Temple Square" in Salt Lake City, Utah, USA; or
(2) a "Family History Centre" (FHC), of the Church, around the World,
on one's, Laptop Computer; and/or, Mobile Device ...
DOES NOT allow access to "Restricted" Records.
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Users/Patrons at (or, even, near), the FHL; or, a FHC, MUST be using one of the "Computers" at, the FHL; or, a FHC, to get access to "Restricted" Records.
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"Computers" at, the FHL; or, a FHC, are, BOTH, "Cabled" (ie. Earthnet) ; and, specifically, "Set-Up", to get access to "Restricted" Records.
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"Restricted" Records CANNOT be accessed via/through the "WiFi" of, the FHL; or, a FHC.
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Here is a "Knowledge Article" in 'FamilySearch':
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Why do I need to sign in to FamilySearch at a family history center?
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I know that this does not help; but, I hope this gives you some perspective.
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Brett
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ps: The aforementioned APPLIES, whether or not, one is Member of the Church.
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I confirm that for the 2 microfilms previously posted by Bill Fitzpatrick 1184604 and 1184605, that I, as a non Church member get the same message he did "To view these images do one of the following: You may be able to view this image by visiting one of our partners' sites or the legal record custodian (fees may apply)"
Catalogue entry Kirchenbuch, 1558-1903 Authors:
Evangelische Kirche Sersheim (OA. Vaihingen) (Main Author)
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/239807
I think it would be helpful for a logged -in Church member to post what message they get regarding viewing restrictions for these microfilms, because I get the impression that no-one believes what I previously wrote to be correct.
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@MaureenE123 MaureenE123
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Maureen
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FYI
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Please be aware ...
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It is NOT, a matter of WHAT you previously wrote ...
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It is a matter, that what you previously wrote, DOES NOT have a bearing on the 'Question' asked/at hand ...
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The matter at hand, is access to "Restricted" Records via/through "WiFi", at the FHL; and/or, a FHC, of the Church ...
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The answer is very SIMPLE ...
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ANSWER
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Using the "WiFi" at, either,
(1) the "Family History Library" (FHL)
.... of the Church, in "Temple Square" in Salt Lake City, Utah, USA; or
(2) a "Family History Centre" (FHC), of the Church, around the World,
on one's, Laptop Computer; and/or, Mobile Device ...
DOES NOT allow access to "Restricted" Records.
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Users/Patrons at (or, even, near), the FHL; or, a FHC, MUST be using one of the "Computers" at, the FHL; or, a FHC, to get access to "Restricted" Records.
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"Computers" at, the FHL; or, a FHC, are, BOTH, "Cabled" (ie. Earthnet) ; and, specifically, "Set-Up", to get access to "Restricted" Records.
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"Restricted" Records CANNOT be accessed via/through the "WiFi" of, the FHL; or, a FHC.
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There is no need for other such matters in this 'Question' ...
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NO User/Patron who is a Member of the Church, needs to; NOR, should they, provide any response, to the matter that you raise, in this 'Question'.
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I hope this helps.
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Brett
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Re "FHL may be under contract with that site to only show it at one of their centers"
But the OP said that he can't see it at an FHL...
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"NOR, should they, provide any response, to the matter that you raise, in this 'Question'."
Pardon? Laying down the law a little there aren't you?
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Despite Brett's way of putting it, I believe that he is fundamentally right.
As a non-member I'm slightly guessing here from my knowledge of previous threads so may miss something but... My belief is that the contractual agreement on these films say that they can only be seen at an FHL. Brett's characterisation of these as "Restricted" isn't particularly clear because they could be restricted for many reasons. These are probably restricted for purely contractual reasons, under agreement with their rights holder.
Bill was at an FHL, so expected to see the items.
However, Bill was also connected via the WiFi and, although it's not obvious, I understand that you need to have a physical, hard-wired connection to the FHL's network (yes, as Brett says). So Bill couldn't see them.
I have always explained this to myself as - imagine someone outside the FHL, with a laptop and a WiFi connection. They access the FHL's network - should they be able to see the films? Well, contractually, the answer is no because they're not in the FHL. But the FHL network can't actually know whether you're on their WiFi inside the building (contractually OK) or on their WiFi outside the building (contractually not OK).... Hence the restriction to a wired connection. It may be thought a pedantic approach but if there are other procedures necessary, such as signing in, you do need assurance that the the user is inside the building.
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This does show that the message concerned misses the point somewhat badly under those circumstances.
If the films in question are accessible by anyone from an FHL, then the message should tell the user to either visit an FHL or a partner site, etc, etc. It doesn't.
If the films in question are accessible by Church members only (and not by non-Church members), from an FHL, then a Church member will get a misleading error message when they are on the WiFi at an FHL.
The fact that I, as a non-Church member, get the same error message at home and am not directed to go to an FHL, tells me (rightly or wrongly) that even if I got to an FHL and wired up, then I couldn't get access - i.e. it is a Church members only film. Unless, unless, unless, this is something to do with what part of the world you're in - I've seen that mentioned (oddly) for German records.
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@Adrian Bruce1
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Adrian
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'Bill' does not indicate whether or not he was INSIDE the FHL.
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As far as I was aware, the FHL is "Still" TEMPORALLY "Closed" to the "Public".
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Thus, the consideration would be that he was using the "WiFi", from outside the building.
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Basically ...
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IF, a "Record", is Restricted", for a User/Patron, in 'FamilySearch'; THEN, access is, generally, more often than not (very occasionally not), available INSIDE, on a Computer, in the FHL; but, certainly NOT, through the "WiFi" of the FHL, either, inside; or, outside.
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[ The aforementioned applies to a FHC as well ... ]
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The Church enables "WiFi" in Church buildings for ALL to use.
[ Wards/Branches; Stake/District Centres; Offices; Libraries; FHL; FHCs; etc ... ]
Again, a FREE service that the Church provides.
Such "WiFi", DOES NOT, enable access to "Restricted" Records.
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"Computers" at, the FHL; or, a FHC, are, BOTH, "Cabled" (ie. Earthnet) ; and, specifically, "Set-Up", to get access to "Restricted" Records.
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That is basically it, simple.
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Brett
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I had a friend of mine (member of the church) check this while signed in at home and I can verify that he did not get any message, he was able to view all 3 sets of records ... so basically if you are a member or the church then you may have access from home. I believe non members may access the records from a Fhc .... a detailed description of the messages one may see and what they mean can be found here: https://www.familysearch.org/help/helpcenter/article/what-are-the-image-restrictions-in-historical-records
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I’ve never been to a FHL but I would assume that using their wifi and logging in to one of their computers would be 2 completely different things, I’m assuming using their WiFi you only get access to whatever you’d have access to while connected to any other internet connection from anywhere? I believe you would need to actually be logged in to one of their computers to view the records? Or access the records from anywhere while logged in as a member of the church
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Here is a link. You cannot view the images from home, but you are supposed to be able to at the FHL. One of the images in the original post appeared when I was outside the FHL. I do not recall which one as it was a while ago. I was connected to the FHL WiFi and logged into my FamilySearch Account. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NC35-T9V?from=lynx1UIV7
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It is a shame that this appears to be the main, divisive issue that stops us being a truly united "Community" - i.e. regardless of our beliefs / religious affiliation, or reasons for using FamilySearch's resources.
In their attempts to avoid legal disputes over the rights of access to certain material, the FS Legal department have appeared to have made things worse with regards to the wording placed on the pages where one would hope to gain access to images.
In this case, I would have naively expected total inaccessibility to these images, whoever or wherever you were. However, as has been explained, the account you are logged in to (public or LDS) or depending on your location (well, actually what machine you are using, as Brett correctly qualifies) can produce a totally different message, as to the availability of the images.
I would only hope that, in future, there could be: (1) more clarity over whether there truly is no access whatsoever, or whether (say) images can be viewed, conditionally and (2) that the contracts themselves might be negotiated in a such a way that can make us all feel of equal "worth" as members of the FamilySearch community.
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Thank you all. For clarification: Due to the pandemic, I was outside the FHL, but connected to the FHL WiFi and logged into my account. Brett's answer explains the issue: "Users/Patrons at (or, even, near), the FHL; or, a FHC, MUST be using one of the "Computers" at, the FHL; or, a FHC, to get access to "Restricted" Records."
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For the records in question, If you are signed in through a Church account, you can view these records on your home computer, as detailed in one of the posts above.
If you are not a church member, you cannot view these records at all through Family Search. It does not matter whether you are inside a Family History Centre, on a FamilySearch computer, if you sign in to FamilySearch on your own account, you will not have access.
For records which you can access in a Family History Centre, the viewing restrictions will say that, "Access the site at a family history center", however for the records in question, there is a different restriction, "To view these images do one of the following: You may be able to view this image by visiting one of our partners' sites or the legal record custodian (fees may apply)"
The most you can hope for is that when you are at a Family History Centre, a church member will volunteer to sign in under their own name. and access the record required, if this is permitted. However, I have been at a Family History Centre in the past when the Centre staff were not church members.
Link posted above by X24mom
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When computers in the FHL or any of the FHCs out there are turned on, they are then set up to connect to Family Search through a special portal. I believe that in order to come access that portal they must be physically located on the ethernet within the FHL or a FHC, and the computer must be registered as a FHL/FHC computer. Just being on the Wi-Fi alone is not enough to have FHL/FHC portal access.
As a church member, I can see the images being discussed from my home. Although access is allowed by contract to the "church" (i.e., the church members), apparently the records custodian of those source images has mandated by contract that the church is to only allow access by non-church members via the FHL or FHCs. The fact that you must be on a computer physically configured in a FHL/FHC is a way that the church can provide proof of their legal compliance with those contracts.
As far as getting one of the member FHL/FHC consultants going into their account to show you those restricted records, the following mandate is documented in the members version of the knowledge article ID:951 that X24mom and MaureenE123 provided:
"Consultants should not sign in to allow members of the public to access restricted images. Such sharing can violate contracts between FamilySearch and the records custodian and can cause the records to be removed from FamilySearch"
So just one consultant trying to be helpful to a single person can result in entire record collections being removed from EVERYONE's access anywhere.
Also note that there are different permutations of restrictions mandated by record custodians. For example, there are some records I've come across where even I, as a member of the church, CANNOT access directly from home. The contracted restrictions on those records require that all members must go to the FHL/FHC to access them. Sometimes this may include non-members as well, and sometimes it does not.
So depending on the situation, who you are, and whether or not you are at a FHL/FHC, the message can be different. Since in this case a member would not get the message at all, it is specific to the needs of the non-member trying to access it.
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Me personally, I don't have an issue with me (as a non-member) having different access from an LDS member. (Other disagree with that viewpoint. Also the issue of the undelivered access promised to non-members who index extensively, is another matter.)
What I do have a problem with is error messages that are less than helpful, such as here. When we discuss access in this forum (or usually, lack of access) we tend to discuss it as genealogists, not as members and non-members. Confusion can therefore arise if each of us sees different things. It would seem sensible for these restriction messages to be preceded by one of these two:
- Based on your non-LDS sign-on to FamilySearch...
- Based on your LDS sign-on to FamilySearch...
That way we get the prompt. I'm not desperately keen to know what the LDS restrictions are because that knowledge doesn't help me, i.e., as Jeff has it, I'm happy with a message that's specific to my situation.
Secondly, if there is a situation where access must be through a wired connection at an FHC / FHL, and not over their Wifi, then the error message should say that. However, I have no evidence that this requirement is breached. Given that LDS Members can access the data from home, but Bill couldn't access it over the FHL's Wifi, I am assuming / deducing that Bill is not a Church member. If he is a Church member then I am puzzled.
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I am not a church member, and like you have no issue that I have less access than a church member. I also agree with you, that a more informative message as to why I do not have access would be helpful.
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Thanks for the clarification, Bill.
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We have had some issues seeing images of church records in India as well. We can see images but they do not show the exact page of the record as they used to and the source link is not the page it used to be. Family Search told us that this is a problem with Find My Past and their administration of the records. There are many agreements between these companies as to who can just "peek" and who can see and who can link etc. Perhaps this is also one of these problems. The best thing about Family Search is that you can call someone 24/7 and at least they can get a help ticket made out for you if not solve your problem.
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