Making temple ordinance reservations inclusionary to all descendants and stopping ordinance hoarding
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John Martin Toner Donnelly said: This idea came to mind whilst discussing another idea on this forum and is kind of an opposite to that idea. I don't have it fully worked out and would appreciate input on what people forsee as issues and how to resolve them.
So basically at the moment any one can go to their account and reserve every unreserved name on their family tree. Some people have huge reservation lists and can not complete all that work alone but they hoard it.
What if you could only reserve to your personal list ancestors born in the last 110 years? We know that you have to have permission from the closest living relative to do this work so there would be no issue once permission was obtained and you could still share with the temple for ordinance ready if you couldn't do it yourself.
So what about after the 110 years? OK so I was thinking 2 things for this one but this really is the part where it would need suggestions and ideas or input on possible issues and resolution s to them.
1. Ordinance ready covers it, because it will auto select names for you.
2. There is a new list, a kind of shared list, a none reservable list. This list contains every ordinance on your tree after the 110 year mark that is ready to take to the temple. But these wouldn't just be on your list, the ordinance would appear on each descendants list that the ancester belonged too. When you print the ordinance you get 1 month to complete the ordinance and if its not completed then it goes back on the list again for any one with that ancestor to print and perform. Each printed ordinance card could have an expiration date printed to it so you know how long you have to complete it.
Discuss please
So basically at the moment any one can go to their account and reserve every unreserved name on their family tree. Some people have huge reservation lists and can not complete all that work alone but they hoard it.
What if you could only reserve to your personal list ancestors born in the last 110 years? We know that you have to have permission from the closest living relative to do this work so there would be no issue once permission was obtained and you could still share with the temple for ordinance ready if you couldn't do it yourself.
So what about after the 110 years? OK so I was thinking 2 things for this one but this really is the part where it would need suggestions and ideas or input on possible issues and resolution s to them.
1. Ordinance ready covers it, because it will auto select names for you.
2. There is a new list, a kind of shared list, a none reservable list. This list contains every ordinance on your tree after the 110 year mark that is ready to take to the temple. But these wouldn't just be on your list, the ordinance would appear on each descendants list that the ancester belonged too. When you print the ordinance you get 1 month to complete the ordinance and if its not completed then it goes back on the list again for any one with that ancestor to print and perform. Each printed ordinance card could have an expiration date printed to it so you know how long you have to complete it.
Discuss please
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Jordi Kloosterboer said: People should be able to reserve anyone that fits according to the specifications. Having a 1-month time limit is not that much time.0
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Gordon Collett said: Ron Tanner has mentioned in several of his live Q&A broadcasts, all of which can be viewed on his Facebook and Youtube channels, over the past couple of years that some point we will be limited on how many reservations we can have on our personal list. That will stop the hoarding depending on what that limit is. If people want to keep track of more ordinances than that, the ordinances over the limit will all have to be shared with the temple where, since the recent update, anyone can take and complete the ordinance.
About your idea for a list to be generated of everyone in Family Tree who shares a common ancestor with me up to say twelve generations back and forward to 110 years ago, I think the major problem is that this would probably be tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of names. Creating the list would probably crash FamilySearch and viewing the list would likely crash my computer.
Basically, Ordinances Ready does do exactly what you discuss in #2, with a three month expiration date, but it stops as soon as it has found one to four names for you rather than spending hours and consuming a massive amount computer resources generating the entire list for you to choose one to four names from.0 -
Cindy Hecker said: For #1 doing ordinances within the last 110 years would not give many people names to do who have pioneer ancestors plus it would likely have more problems as we already have people adding living people and marking them as deceased when they are not careful. Leave the 110 year rule alone!
#2 Why make a list for you when we can now reserve any ordinance shared with the temple. Ordinance ready does a good job as well.0 -
John Martin Toner Donnelly said: That's true, but ordinance ready doesn't allow you select specific ordinances it only searches 4 random ones under the ordinance ready specifications. And as you say it's only 4.
To give a little context, this is an alternative idea to a family group where there would be a shared reservation list so all family members could access and print at will from the reserved ordinances. That idea was viewed as exclusionary and depriving others of blessings. So I came up with this solution which still allows all family members to access all the ordinances that are ready for the temple but does not exclude distant relatives.
One of the problems FS has be having is people reserving thousands of ordinances and hoarding them, more ordinances than they will ever be able to perform. So maybe the 110 year mark could be increased to a yet unspecified number of generations, possibly in line with what we are encouraged to achieve at minimum for our own family (sorry I dont remember how many generations that is).
Jordi Kloosterboer 6 hours ago
People should be able to reserve anyone that fits according to the specifications. Having a 1-month time limit is not that much time
Yeah 1 month is not that long but this will encourage people to only print the ordinances they are going to perform on the temple visit they are making. This means the other ordinances would still be available to other distant relatives. Again 1 month is only an example guesstimate of what I feel would be a reasonable amount of time for some one to have attended the temple after printing the ordinance card. It could be longer than this but should still be short enough so people don't game the system by printing all the ordinances and them being valid for a long time, thus excluding other distant relatives from assisting in performing those ordinances for their ancestors.
To be honest in terms of compute power, it would be a person by person basis and if coded right should not take too much. Obviously it would take more than at present and that is a consideration that would probably need to be taken into account if this were to go forward.
Gordon Collett 7 hours ago
......... About your idea for a list to be generated of everyone in Family Tree who shares a common ancestor with me up to say twelve generations back and forward to 110 years ago, I think the major problem is that this would probably be tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of names. Creating the list would probably crash FamilySearch and viewing the list would likely crash my computer.
Essentially though at max it would only need to go back to 1500 as that's when temple ordinances stop being reservable. So that's 1390 years divide by an average 20 year soperation per generation gives us 69.5 generations so let's call it 70 for the sake of being over cautious. Now assuming each generation doubles in size compared to the previous and assuming an average 4 children per household that's 6 per household and let's say at 110 years we are already 6 generations back.
(quick maths time)
So that's 6 multiplied by 2 to the 76th power which would give us 453,347,182,355,485,940,514,816.
Yeah that's even more people than I thought. But that's assuming all generations are filled all the way back to 1500 with 6 people per family and actually its probably a little less than that given that 1 child of each family will also double as the parent of the next. But still a very large number.
Now most people don't get all their family lines filled and and get as far back as the 1500's. But even if they did a lot of that work on most people's tree is already completed. Essentially the script would run 50 ancestors per page in the … [truncated]0 -
John Martin Toner Donnelly said:
This is a great point but there are some restrictions as you said it only provides 4 names, what if you need more because your going to do baptisms and you want to do all family file, or other instances where you need more than 4.
Gordon Collett 7 hours ago
........ Basically, Ordinances Ready does do exactly what you discuss in #2, with a three month expiration date, but it stops as soon as it has found one to four names for you rather than spending hours and consuming a massive amount computer resources generating the entire list for you to choose one to four names from.
Also ordinance ready doesn't let you pick specific ancestors to do work for, a lot of people like to be able to select specific ancestors, especially when they have taken the time to research them and feel they have gotten to know them somewhat.
(not trying to be negative on ordinance ready lol, it's a great system and an excellent addition to FS, apologies I am trying to keep it all posative
)
It means there can still be a strong desire for selecting specific ordinances to perform0 -
A van Helsdingen said: To speak as a non-LDS from a genealogical angle about your claim that you have 453,347,182,355,485,940,514,816 relatives in a certain time frame (which is around 450x10^21). The number of humans estimated to have ever lived is about 100-110 billion (100x10^9). If you square that number, it is still less than the first number.
1. A human generation tends to be more like 25-30 years than 20 years. That reduces the number of generations down from 70 to around 50.
2. In pre-industrial times, while families did tend to have around 6 children, only 2 on average survived to have children, thus keeping the population roughly constant or increasing very slowly.
3. Pedigree collapse/in-breeding means that a lot of one's ancestors are duplicates. For example 80 generations back around the time of Christ the world population was around 250 million, but 2 to the power of 80 is 1.2x10^24. Similarly, a descendancy chart for someone who lived some time ago (e.g. Mayflower passenger) will have millions of duplicates.0 -
John Martin Toner Donnelly said:
Yep it is a bit short and could be longer than 110 years, this was just an arbitrary starting point for discussion, not trying to mess with the 110 years thing by the way at all. Could be any number of years or generations.
Cindy Hecker 42 minutes ago
For #1 doing ordinances within the last 110 years would not give many people names to do who have pioneer ancestors plus it would likely have more problems as we already have people adding living people and marking them as deceased when they are not careful. Leave the 110 year rule alone!
Its true ordinance ready does a great job but there are still bases it leaves uncovered. and for that I refer to my pervious comment
#2 Why make a list for you when we can now reserve any ordinance shared with the temple. Ordinance ready does a good job as well.
............. It only provides 4 names, what if you need more because your going to do baptisms and you want to do all family file, or other instances where you need more than 4.
Also ordinance ready doesn't let you pick specific ancestors to do work for, a lot of people like to be able to select specific ancestors, especially when they have taken the time to research them and feel they have gotten to know them somewhat.
(not trying to be negative on ordinance ready lol, it's a great system and an excellent addition to FS, apologies I am trying to keep it all posative )
It means there can still be a strong desire for selecting specific ordinances to perform0 -
John Martin Toner Donnelly said: Thanks for your thoughts ideas and questions so far by the way, keep it coming.0
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John Martin Toner Donnelly said: Thank you, I was so hoping some one would come along with some more accurate maths. I'm a little rusty and was going for an overestimate so that i didn't low ball it lol. Much appreciated on the help there. #BigThanks0
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This is Fredrickwalker, We as a Ward have a Birmingham Temple trip coming up shortly, I have tried to get for card list to print out but the system won't let me print the Request for ordnance list. It says to click on file and then click on print. However, there is no where to click on file. So how can I get this to Work?
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