Conflicting names and birth locations
My search goes completely cold at my paternal great-grandfather. I have a census with the last name of Mik Salivonshik (Poland) and a draft card with Michael Salivonchik (Russia). Why the conflicts? He was born between 1885-1886 married Helen Katsko/Katska.i do not know when they were married but Helen was married preciously,came to the marriage with 3 children then they had my grandfather (George). I believe that they immigrated here (usa) in 1912. I have a letter from who may be my 2x's great grandmother but I can't read Russian. Does anyone have a clue as to why the conflicts? Tia!
Best Answer
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Again, I know nothing of the solutions to your research other than:
- As is stated above, you should never sweat over minor spelling differences, even if just one language is involved. Here, we have presumably at least two, so between natural changes and attempts at translations / transcriptions, we should expect oddities.
- With regards to Poland / Russia, you may know this already, but the Polish story is complex and covers shifting ground. https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Poland_History gives you a start and you will see (if you didn't know already) that Poland didn't exist as an independent country between 1795 & 1918. Part of what had been Poland was absorbed by Russia. At the end of WW2, Poland's boundaries were shifted yet again with - so far as I can see - the whole country being shifted to the west so that some of the eastern parts went from Poland to the Soviet Union. At a wild guess, there must be places that were in Poland then the Polish part of Russia (for want of a better term) then Poland then the USSR. The situation is complicated by the fact that nobody ever told US officialdom about the genealogists' rule of using the place-names as at the time of the event - instead they might use the country name applicable for that town / city, at the time the form was compiled many years later.
Again, let me repeat - if you knew all that, my apologies!
I don't therefore consider Poland / Russia to be a conflict - he may have been born in the Polish part of Russia and described his birthplace as being Russia, but at the time the "Poland" form was compiled, his birthplace had become part of the revived Poland.
Mik / Michael - well, I suspect Mik is just an abbreviation, in the same way that "Mick" is an abbreviation for Michael. (According to Wikipedia the Polish form of Michael is Michał - the "L" has a bar through it in case it doesn't come out right, which alters the pronunciation somewhat.)
Nor would I worry about Salivonchik / Salivonshik. Neither probably represent the original spelling - I have this vague idea that "cz" in Eastern European languages is pronounced similarly to the English pronunciation of "ch" (think "Czech") while "sz" corresponds to an English "sh". I hope I'm not ridiculously wrong there, but the point is that if an attempt is being made to use English spelling, a degree of confusion might exist in someone's mind whether "ch" or "sh" was best.
As for taking your research further, I think you need to get as much out of the US records as possible, then something might emerge from the conflicted stories. Not sure what you have access to but I'm looking in Ancestry and I can see what may be Michael's DC in 1959, where George gives Michael's father as also being Michael. Or does he? Accumulated years' of cynicism suggest that if the question was simply "Father's name?", George might have thought he was being asked his own father's name. What's also interesting is that George gives his father's birthplace as "White Russia". At that point, my already-thin knowledge runs out because that area really is a confusion to me - I believe it's now part of Belarus. But again, we have to ask - what did George mean by White Russia? A bit of what was Poland that had gone back to the USSR perhaps?
There's also interesting stuff in Ancestry like a reference to the Butler Area Public Library, Obituary Index - you may already have the obits in the Butler Eagle but it's something to follow up if not.
Also, from FindAGrave for Fannie Hindman, it looks like her father was Dimitro Katsko and someone called Dimitri Katzko is in the U.S., Newspapers.com Marriage Index, 1800s-1999 as marrying Anna Kuchik about June 1913. I can find a Dimitry Katzko (who may or may not be the right one) arriving in the US on 18 Aug 1912 - but not your Michael!
You may know all that but I'm throwing it in (a) in case you don't and (b) to illustrate the sort of stuff that can be found out there that may or may not help if you can stick the pieces of the jigsaw together. (Some of those pieces may not belong to your jigsaw, of course!)
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@KSalivonchik KSalivonchik
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FYI
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Not that I can help with your research ...
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But ...
As to 'conflicting names' ...
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Unfortunately, all round the World, different 'spelling' of 'Family Names'/'Surnames' is common place.
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Years ago, there was not the requirement to "Prove" who you were when you "Arrived"; and, in most instances, it was HOW the person who recorded the "Arrival" WROTE the 'Name' down, in the Records (or, in some cases, how it was written down on a Ship's/Vessel's "Passenger" Manifest (again subject to HOW the person who recorded the "Manifest" WROTE the 'Name' down); as, it was 'pronounced' by the individual/person concerned; as, it was recorded - just relying on 'phonetics'.
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The same holds true for various LATER (after "Arrival") other Records (eg. Census; etc - even, 'Military' Draft Registration ).
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The spelling of 'Names', was certainly, not always consistent.
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Often, it is a matter of 'detective' work in ones genealogical research, to find; and, piece together, ALL the variant "Spelling" of a 'Name.
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I know that this does not help; but, I hope that it gives you some perspective.
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Brett
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ps: Welcome to "Genealogy"/"Family History" ... now the real work begins ...
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@KSalivonchik KSalivonchik I concur with @Brett . due to my own personal experience with my great grandfather b 1872. The earliest record I could find of his existence was his marriage record to my ggrandmother in 1898. his name on census records, marriage record, newspaper articles, obit, etc was Joseph B. Shiflett... I searched for nearly 20 years for his family ... I finally found him about a year ago on the 1880 cenus with his family name spelled as “Shipley”... lots of folks also used their initials A Lot on old records... and depending on who was giving the info, and who was actually writing down the info, the names will def vary. I hope this was helpful! Good luck!
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😀
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I didn't read your question correctly. Whoops!
I'll leave my earlier answer further below for future help.
Census takers don't always spell it correctly even when given the spelling! There are other reasons as mentioned by others.
We have two family ancestor name spellings that always makes me work hard! for instance: Belleque has been written as Billeque, Bélec, (from French spelling) Black, Blake, etc...
The name Logan has many variences as well, being spelled Lobban,
Loggan, Lobhan, Loban, Lagan, Laggan, MacLennan, Loganach.
It will help if you find someone who can translate the letter by your gg grandmother. Can you upload it somewhere online, maybe even here, asking for help? Do you think it has her last name on it?
Penny
"There may be some other reason altogether you cannot find your great grandfather's name! For me it was a story mentioned saying there are too many of you here with the same name - therefore you need to change it. Apparently it was supposedly the postmaster who told them this. My great grandfather Carl Ludvig went from Johnson to Bradford. How's that for a change in spelling!
Do you have a copy of the immigration certificate? Where did he live then? Were there many of the family there? Look at all of your grandfather's siblings ancestry done too."
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Edited!
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I would be happy to translate your 2x great-grandmother's letter. I have a masters in Russian translation. Can you email a scanned copy to me? elainem33@aol.com
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For my own interest as much as anything, I managed to find this Wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_changes_of_Poland_immediately_after_World_War_II about the parts of pre-WW2 Poland that were handed over to the USSR. It says that those parts "today form part of Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine".
Notice the reference to Belarus, which sort of seems to be linked to the idea of "White Russia" as mentioned by George. So it may be that Michael's birthplace is sort of roughly, vaguely in that area. Or I might be adding two and two together and making 22.
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That is so nice! I knew someone might help @KSalivonchik KSalivonchik with translating!!
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There is a tree ("Amsbaugh Family Tree") on Ancestry that seems to throw everything into the mix for someone called "Michael Mike Emilian Salivonchik Selivonczik Salwonczik". Lots of those things can't be your Mike - or even the same person! - but there is an interesting arrival in New York, U.S., Arriving Passenger and Crew Lists (including Castle Garden and Ellis Island), 1820-1957 :
Name Michael Salowanczik
Arrival Date 27 Dec 1913
Birth Date 1887
Last Permanent Address Russia
Other Last Permanent Address Jonwin [I don't quite believe this reading]
Age 26
Gender Male
Ethnicity/ Nationality Russian
Port of Departure Liverpool, England
Port of Arrival New York, New York, USA
Ship Name Cedric
He's line 19. Of most interest is that this chap is heading for Buttler PA. Interesting... You probably need someone better versed in the placenames of the area to read this guy's origins.
Is it your Michael? Well, I'd suggest that it warrants looking at - right county and the surname's interesting bearing in mind my belief that "czik" would be pronounced more like "chik"... But there still a lot of questions. Such as where is he in the 1920, etc?
Also interesting is that - very unusually - I appear to have spotted the 1913 Michael arriving in the UK for onward transit. He's Michail Salowonczik in the Hamburg Passenger Lists, 1850-1934 on Ancestry:
Name: Michail Salowonczik
Gender: männlich (Male)
Ethnicity/Nationality: Russland (Russian)
Marital status: verheiratet (Married)
Departure Age: 26
Birth Date: abt 1887
Residence Place: Jarwin
Departure Date: 10 Dez 1913 (10 Dec 1913)
Departure Place: Hamburg, Deutschland (Germany)
Destination: USA
Arrival Place: Grimsby; Liverpool; Southampton; Glasgow
Occupation: Landmann, Tagelöhner
Ship Name: Accrington
Shipping Clerk: Hamburg-Amerika Linie (Hamburg-Amerikanische Packetfahrt-Actien-Gesellschaft)
Ship Type: Dampfschiff
Ship Flag: England
Accommodation:ohne Angabe
That pretty much has to be the guy on the Cedric so he must have got off the SS Accrington somewhere in England and transferred to the Cedric. Again, let me emphasise that I cannot be certain that this is your Michael (because there are a couple of others with similar names) but it really warrants looking at given that he is aiming to go the the right county.
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My gratitude is vast and my joy knowing that there are people willing to help a stranger. Your information is much appreciated! Thank you, thank you. Kim
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Thank you, so much, for taking time out of your day to explain my confusion. I've learned so much on this site, specifically the generosity and kindness of strangers. Your reply is much appreciated! Kim
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****!!! As soon as I can figure out how to get it to you, I will! I am so excited at the prospect of knowing what this letter says. You are incredibly kind for your generosity and my gratitude immense. Thank you! Kim
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hi elaine,
can i save your email address for a possible contact later on ????
later on in my searches i may find russian documents that need translating for my polish ancestors (after 1868 russian, was the official language for any of the polish land annexed by russia.)
you are the only russian knowledgeable person that i come across in all my ancestry research endeavors!
cheerio
carola hume
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