I am looking for record of St. Martin's Catholic Church is Lieven, Pas de-Calais France. My grandfa
I would like to find out who the priests were in St. Martin's Catholic Church in Lieven France during this time frame (1901-1906. My great grandmother Marie Cucu had my grandfather, Leonce KFZH-JS9, before marrying Leone Francious Joseph Lambert KFZJ-DJ6. She always told her kids she believed in the Catholic Church, but not to trust the priests. She was very young while attending school there. I have a coy of of Leonce Lamberts Birth Certificate from Lieven France which show him as a "B" child and his birth was legitimized when his mother married Leonce Francious Lambert. I have a brother willing to take a DNA test for me, but am not sure what we would find without knowing who the priests were during that time frame
Any guidance is appreciated.
Carol
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Carol, you might find some help in the @France Genealogy Research or the @Adoption and Unknown Family Research
This sounds like an interesting mystery to solve. I hope some others can help with this and maybe we can find more information.
I would definitely have your brother take the DNA test. I am presuming that you are asking a brother so that you can look for YDNA. Autosomal DNA is incredibly helpful in looking for unknown parents. You can take an Autosomal DNA test yourself and look for surnames that do not fit with the known family history.
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@Carol Ann1 I am unfamiliar with sources for lists of priests in the Catholic Church. Have you asked your question in the France Research Group. You might also want to set up an appointment with a Research Specialist from the Family Historicity Library in Salt Lake City for an online Consultation.
Refer to information from the Family Search Wiki https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Family_History_Library_Online_Consultations about these 20 minute consultations.
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Steve, Thank you for responding. One of these days I will figure it all out on where to post and get all the links in play.
I do know the City of Lieven was bombed during the War. Most of my information and documents came from the Mayor in Lieven, France. They were a great help furnishing me with my grandfather's birth record and his "parents" marriage record. I haven't found out anything yet about the church there. This come from family information that the Catholic Church in Oak Creek, Colorado was named after the one in France. But, you know how family stories can go....Need to forward my request to the France Research Group. Sorry, still learning the ins and outs of the Community. Again, thanks for your help.
Carol Selander
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Definitely something I had put by the wayside. My older brother (who has no children) was making such a fuss about our other two brothers being adopted and having their last names changed (They have our mother's maiden name as their surname). He said they needed to make a name change back to the original name to carry on the surname. So what a surprise to him when I discovered my grandfather's birth record. He no longer makes a big deal of it.... Of course, I did ask him "if it's so important to you, why no children" I know that was tacky and he has forgiven me.
I had a DNA test many many years ago. I think I need to do it again and actually try to make sense of it. At least my brother (and I'm very sure we have the same parents) is willing to take the test. Who knows what we may find out.
Like you said, a mystery waiting to be solved..
Carol
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@Carol Ann1 Your post has been sent to the France Group, so my suggestion is that you join that group at @France Genealogy Research. Also, I hope you will check out the online consultation Wiki. Check out the following information to learn how to ask, post and answer questions:
Here are some links to help you get started in FamilySearch Community
- Navigating the Community
- Reading Posts
- Asking & Answering Questions
- FAQs
- Video: Finding Research Help Online in FamilySearch Community
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Bonjour @Carol Ann1
I would like to make a small correction: Leonce was born on the 3rd and not the 4th as stated in your message. I found his birth certificate (Act 599) in Liévin : click here.
I also took the opportunity to update KFZJ-JS9.
There is a transcription error in the marginal mention of his birth certificate, since the civil officer indicated the date of birth of the child instead of the date of the parents' marriage.
I asked the local bishop's office in the hope that they would agree to consult the catholic registers of that time. We have to wait a few days. But I don't understand why you're looking for this information!? Can you explain it to me clearly please?
Best regards - Paul-Marc
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Paul-Marc, I love that you have been so thorough in checking these records. It sure helps to have extra eyes that help catch issues. This is very helpful.
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Hello Paul-Marc,
Thanks so much for the searching you are doing on behalf. Thank you for the correction on Leonce's birth date. It is now correct in my family file.
The reason I am looking for this information is for genealogy purposes only. Many stories were handed down by Leonce's mother (Marie CuCu) which were later proved to be in error. She had 3 children and it is believed only the middle child "Jules" is from her marriage to Leonce Lambert KFZJ-DJ6.
Her second husband, Esperance Capet KFC5-KQW
Told Philomene Lambert K197-TKH
that he was her biological father and left everything to her when he died. Philomene also looked a lot like Esperance.
Marie left France in 1913 with her 3 children. She told descendants she came to join her husband She said her husband and Esperance Capet had traveled together but her husband returned to France before she arrived in the United States and had asked Esperance to take care of her and the children. There is no record of her husband every coming to the United States, but I did find the records for Esperance Capet and he had travelled alone. Was surprised to learn he was from Lieven, France.
My brother's have made a big deal about carrying on the Lambert surname, but now realize it may not be the biological line. If I had the surnames of the priests, my brothers and I could have DNA tests run to see what surname I should be following.
Marie did attend school at the Church in France, or so the story goes, when my grandfather was conceived. She remained a Catholic after coming to the United States, but did not trust Priests. In the end, we really don't know who my grandfather's biological father is.
I'm trying every venue I can think of to solve the puzzle. Just want to have an accurate record.
Again, thanks for all you are doing. I look forward to hearing from you and hope I have answered your question.
Have a wonderful day, Carol (Lambert) Selander.
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Bonjour @Carol Ann1
Still no answer from the Bishop (we still have to wait).
On the other hand, as I had some free time these days, I completed some missing genealogical data on your Family Tree. 😉
For your information, the Pas-de-Calais region is the family cradle of my ancestors on the maternal side and I know the city of Liévin very well. Historically, it was a mining town and that is why your ancestors are miners.
A bientôt ! Bien cordialement - Paul-Marc
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Paul-Marc you are fantastic! I hope that others will follow your lead and be as helpful as you. You are an asset to the FamilySearch Community.
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Bonjour Paul-Marc,
You are wonderful! Thank you for taking the time to research and update my family tree. Twice I have scheduled a trip to France. The first was on 911 - bags were packed, I was getting ready to leave for the airport when my husband called and said "turn on the TV, I don't think you are going anywhere" All planes grounded. The second time my husband ended up in the hospital (this was 2004). About 10 people from my family made the trip. Philomene (my great aunt), was presented the key to city of Liévin and was given a beautiful platter to take home. She was in a Newspaper article with her picture. I have a copy of the newspaper article. You are definitely an asset to the FamilySearch Community. 😀
Our family is very proud of the French heritage!
A bientôt ! Bien cordialement - Carol
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Bonjour @Carol Ann1
I do not know if you had noticed: we see your ancestor in singular military outfit in his photo (the headdress is typical).
In fact, this photo was taken during his military service while serving in a French light infantry unit belonging to the African Army: the 8th Regiment of "Zouaves" For more information on the "Zouaves" click here.
You can be proud of him because he fought against the Germans during the First World War. And ... you can see on his uniform the "War Cross" that he received on October 18, 1916 after participating in the battles of Artois and Champagne.
He was wounded in his left foot at Sillery (Marne-51) on 8 October 1915 because of shrapnel.
For his military service, I've found something that will most certainly interest you: click here and here.
Enjoy! 😉
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Paul-Marc YOU are such an asset to the FamilySearch Community. This is great information. Your responses are proof that Community works. Hurray!
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Bonsoir @Carol Ann1
I do not forget you, I revived the bishop's office and they told me to take care of it tonight, We will see ...
"I'm not letting go of the piece" 😆
Bien Cordialement - Paul-Marc
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I love that you are like a hound dog on a hunt. There is nothing better than having boots on the ground when you need an answer.
Paul-Marc I hope that others will help to answer your questions too. Thank you for your service in helping to find answers for Carol Ann1.
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Bonsoir Paul-Marc,
Thank you for not forgetting me. I was just thinking about it this AM. I had also asked you a question in another e-mail about the death date for Leonce Lambert. I had read (or someone translated) the marriage record of Leonce Lambert and Marie CuCu. In the margin was a "divorce" date which is about the same for his death date. I went back and looked at the record in FamilySearch and now realize his death date is "after" 16 Oct 1930. Now if makes sense. I believe he died sometime before 1956. I only say that because family visited that year and met some of his second family on the French Riveria. They took a picture, but....didn't put names on it and could not remember who was who.
I look forward to what you get from the bishop's office. All in all I'm still proud to be a Lambert with a French connection.
You have gone to considerable effort for me and I am ever so grateful.
I should have taken French in school! It's never to late to learn a new language.
Bien Cordialement - Carol
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Bonjour @Carol Ann1
Good news ... I was able to get your information!
Well, the baptism certificate transcribed on the baptism register of St. Martin's Parish in Liévin bears the number 432 and is dated August 16, 1904.
The baptism was celebrated by a Vicar who signs P. FAUVEL.
The parish priest was Francis DUBOIS.
(La fiche a été mise à jour)
Enjoy! 😉
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Thanks Paul-Marc! I learned some new French today. La fiche a été mise à jour means the file has been updated according to that wonderful Google translate tool.
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Good Day, Paul-Marc,
je suis confus en ce moment. How could Leonce Lambert (b. name Cucu), be baptized before he was born? He was born Sep 3 1904 and baptized Aug 16 1904. Either his birth date or baptism date is in question. I keep coming up with more questions for you? I so appreciate all you have done and have ordered the DNA kit for my brother to see what surname surfaces.
You have gone above and beyond in helping me and filling in the blanks on my ancestry. I wish there was a way I could repay you.
Forever grateful, Carol
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Also, thank you for updating the records in FamilySearch. You are keeping me busy on my lines! Carol
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Bonsoir @Carol Ann1
Exellent remark!
I hadn't even noticed... perhaps a misreading. 😪
I'll look at this point tomorrow morning with the Bishop (if necessary, I ask for a copy)
Best regards - Paul-Marc
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Bonjour @Carol Ann1
Well, there is enough to bang your head against the walls: the baptism of Leonce was indeed celebrated on August 16, 1904, (so before the birth declared at the Town Hall) and in the act of baptism, it is written that Leonce was born on July 24, 1904... 💥
So I will take steps to recover a copy of this baptism to have proof because at this point you must be like St. Thomas (expression française), believe only what you see! 👀
Best regards - Paul-Marc
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Bonjour Paul-Marc,
I am familiar with the term "Doubting Thomas". This is making a wonderful story for my family! I look forward to getting a copy to attach to my grandfather's record.
Please give my thanks to the bishop's office for looking up this record for us. A good thing the Catholic Church has kept such good records.
Tu es un grand chien de chien ! (is that correct for hounddog??)
My best to you, Carol
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bonjour, i think there is a mistake on the act of baptism, there are no birth "cucu" on the july 24 in the civil register. the birth act say "birth today on twelve". I don't understand why you want know who are the priests ?? on the birth, there is a mistake, in the marginal mention, the employee writes that the child was legitimized by the marriage of 03/09/1904 or the marriage was 22 04 1905, I think it is carelessness on his part. when the child was born we gave him the same first name as the future husband for me no doubt lambert is the father of the child.
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Bonjour Marie Anto, Thank you for your reply.
I am still confused. I find it very unlikely there was a mistake on the baptism record of Leonce "Cucu". Catholic records are very thorough. I don't know what it means "birth today on twelve". That still would not match up with Sep 3 1904. I do realize that when Marie Cucu married Leonce Lambert on 22 Apr 1905 the birth of her son was legitimized. I also know the town records show Leonce's birth as Sep 3, 1904. It just doesn't make sense to me how he was baptized before he was born.
The reason for the idea that his father may have been a priest is from family stories. Marie (Cucu) Lambert always told her children and others that she believed in the Catholic Church, but did not trust the priests. I admit she told lots of stories after her arrival in the United States which have proven false. She always said her husband Leonce Lambert had come to the US first and she came to be with him. Her husband never came to the United States, but Esperance Capet, who she did join, was from Lieven.
We actually believe her children Leonce Cucu, Jules Lambert and Philomene Lambert are from different fathers. Esperance Capet told Philomene Lambert that he was her biological father.
i'm just trying to make my records correct.
I have no agenda with the Catholic Church one way or the other.
Marie Cucu did not marry until Leonce was between 7 - 9 months old. Depending on what birth date is correct.
Was Marie a student at St. Martin's during the time period Leonce was born?
I have ordered a DNA kit for my brother to take to determine if he is a Lambert. I would love to find out that he is so I can put this to rest.
Thanks for replying, Carol
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Hopefully, the DNA test will determine who the father is and who you are related to. I can't wait to hear that your results are in.
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Bonsoir @Carol Ann1 & @Carolyn Webber ,
I have heard from the Bishop's Office: they will send me the baptism certificat (written in Latin) by the end of the week.
In fact they made a mistake on reading the certificat ... "8bris" (Latin), it's not the month of August, but the month of October!!! Pschiiiiiiiiiiiiii ... "8bris" is the Latin abbreviation for "Octobris"...
So, the baptism of Leonce was celebrated on October 16, 1904 😄
You'd have to give me your e-mail so I could send the documents.
Well, that's it, all is well that ends well ... 😉
Best regards - Paul-Marc
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Ah, the 8bris does make sense! I love seeing how this group worked together to find results.
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Hello Paul-Marc
My private e-mail is cas1950@grandecom.net. I have it synced with my church e-mail. So if you send me the documents from your private e-mail it will work out and not appear for everyone. You have done a wonderful service for me and I am relieved he was not baptized before being born!
My brother is coming to visit this month and I have the DNA kit here at the house for him to use! I would love to have it show Lambert's on his line, so we can put this to bed.
Again, you are wonderful for going to such trouble for me.
With much appreciation, Carol
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Bonjour @Carol Ann1
I received the documents this morning. I sent them on your personal email.
When I'll have a little moment in the day, I'll update his sheet on the family tree.
Well, it's been a long time, but it's still a solved case (at least on my side) 😉
Best regards - Paul-Marc
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