Wesley Joseph McCullen and James Calvin Henry Hobbs
I have two 4th great uncles listed that have correct parents listed on death certificates but aren’t on the censuses at all with their parents. Let me explain.
First is Wesley Joseph McCullen(LZBV-816). He was born in 1863 and died in 1963. When he died, his parents are listed as Joseph McCullen and Hamie Sutton. The father Wesley is attached to is different(William Archibald McCullen) but the mother is the same. I have some speculation on this one, but I’ve found nothing on Joseph McCullen other than that. He could also have a different mother with the same name or be illegitimate? I don’t honestly know.
The second is a bigger mystery because both of his parents are correct on his death certificate. He is James Calvin Henry Hobbs(LD1M-NC1) and his parents are listed as Henry Hobbs and Mary Frances Moore on the certificate(the only difference with my notes is that William Henry Hobbs is his father’s name). Maybe he was apprenticed? It says that he was a farmer as an adult though. I’ll put the names down at the bottom again so you can take a look for yourself.
Wesley Joseph McCullen: LZBV-816
James Calvin Henry Hobbs: LD1M-NC1
Thank you so much for your time! I really appreciate it!
Sincerely,
Benjamin Jones
Answers
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For your Wesley Joseph McCullen, I see what you mean about him not appearing on the censuses with the William Archibald McCullen listed as his father. You would expect him at least in the 1870 census. By 1880 he would have been old enough to be working at someone else's farm.
It is possible that his daughter, Hammie, who gave the information on his death certificate just didn't know what her grandfather's name was. She may well have remembered her grandmother's name only because she was named after her. Both grandparents died before she was born, so she never actually met them. Was he married at his brother, Jasper McCullen's house? And was his wife Hattie Hobbs, related to the minister Hobbs who married them? That would be helpful in determining who his family members are for sure. Also, newspapers might mention visiting family members and their relationships. That can help to certify that your Wesley Joseph McCullen really was the son of William Archibald McCullen. There is a Joe McCullen who dies in Sampson County in 1948...do you know who that is?
How common was the name Hammie in that area? Is it possible that two different Hammie's are getting crossed? One that might have been a widow getting mixed up with one that had the maiden name of Sutton? You might also check with other folks who have submitted changes to the record of Wesley Joseph McCullen and Archibald to see what they might know. James Calvin Henry Hobbs in the next comment, so I don't lose all of this one while studying him!
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Something to note on your James Calvin Henry Hobbs...the mother Mary Frances says in 1900 census that she has born 16 children and 11 are still alive. In 1910, she says 18 children with 11 still living. There are only 11 children listed for her on FamilySearch Family Tree and James Calvin is one of them. I also find it interesting that they use both nicknames and full names for their kids, ie: they have an Elizabeth and a Lizzie, a Hattie and a Henrietta...very unusual. They get them out of order too, in 1880, Lizzie is listed before Hattie, but they've corrected her age to 2... Also, note that the whole darn family is in the same area for several generations and huge families all using the same names over...Yikes! Trying to keep them all straight is going to be crazy.
Aha! I have a tie for you! Obituary of Mrs. Betty McCullen 18 Apr 1950 from News and Observer, Raleigh, NC ...lists surviving siblings: 'four sisters, Mrs. lizzie Bowden of Mt Olive, Route 3, Mrs. Fannie Hare of Mt. Olive, Mrs. Oscar Gregory of Coats, Mrs. Jule McCullen of Mt. Olive, Route 3; four brothers, Calvin Hobbs of Faison, Jesse of Deep Run, Route 1, William Wright Hobbs of Clinton, Ben j. Hobbs of Faison...'
I'll send the link to the clipping in a message!
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@Anne LoForte Willson
Again, thanks for the advice on both Wesley Joseph McCullen and James Calvin Henry Hobbs! I will start my response to you by talking about McCullen first and then about Hobbs. I’ll separate the response into two parts. This is the first part.
I have sent a message to four different people who contributed to researching Wesley Joseph McCullen asking them a modified version of the question I sent you, and I also sent the same message to the owner of one of the better trees with Wesley in it on Ancestry, a woman named Sonja Yount. Interestingly, she proposes that his parents are actually Mack McCullen and Frances Elizabeth Carr because a Joseph McCullen is in the 1880 census with them. His age on that census is definitely off though, although not outside of reason based on when he married Hattie Hobbs. In fact, if it wasn’t for the certificate, I might even consider the idea. Also, there’s already a Joseph McCullen attached to Mack. Here’s the ID.
Joseph McCullen: LJVR-TVG
First of all, do I know who the Hobbs minister who married them is? I actually don’t. The only person who I think of who could fit into that possibility is James Gabriel Hobbs, who would be Hattie’s uncle, but he was a farmer and not a minister or a Justice of the Peace. I never noticed the thing about Jasper McCullen being a witness of the marriage. That definitely points to some sort of relation, and seems to imply that Jasper is his brother, and I have proof that Jasper is in the censuses with his proper parents. I’m not sure if he married at Jasper’s home, but it’s within the realm of possibility.
Do I know who Joe McCullen who died in 1948 is? I’ve searched for a Joseph McCullen who died on that date and I have nothing. Where did you find this person? Is he on FamilySearch, and can you give me a link to the ID?
Is Hammie a common name in that county? I wouldn’t say common, but there are two Hammies with the exact same first, middle, and last name(Hammie Elizabeth McCullen). The second Hammie, who I will refer to as Hammie(2), is my great great grandmother. She died quite young, and I have proof of her parentage. Interestingly enough, Hammie(2) is married to a man named Johnnie Lewis Jackson with his own parent linking issues(that’s a another separate issue). I’ll give you the ID of both Hammies just to make it easier on you.
Hammie(1): LRN8-222
Hammie(2): KZF5-531
I’ll post about Hobbs in my next comment as soon as I’m able to.
Sincerely,
Benjamin J
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@Anne LoForte Willson
I took the clippings and posted pictures of them on FamilySearch. I looked and that’s a lot of children! I wonder if there were infant or very young childhood deaths between the censuses during the largest gaps between the children. If I had to guess I would guess between Elizabeth and Fannie(1867 and 1873) and between Benjamin and Mike(1881 to 1885) It is weird though she would have two children past 1900. She would be 58, well past the period of childbearing.
One more thing, I wonder where James Calvin Henry Hobbs is then in 1880, because he isn’t with his sisters. He isn’t in the 1900 census either, although he could be living by himself or working for someone. Both obituaries confirm his relationship to the rest of the family. Maybe he was actually born after 1880?
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Regarding marriage of Wesley Joseph McCullen and Hattie Hobbs, I mis-spoke. It was T A Hobbs, Justice of the Peace who married them. "Jasper McCullin's" listed in the next box is the place of marriage, witnesses are K Abritt, W Abritt and D L Bradshaw.
Hmm...can't locate the 1948 death. I must have confused it with a birth date.
The Joe McCullen son of Mack isn't your guy, either. His 1939 death certificate gives the 1872 birth and parents Mack McCullen and Fannie Carr which match that 1880 census.
And Family Tree doesn't have Joe McCullen, son of H.C. McCullen and Hammie McCullen born Jul 1938 died Aug 1938 (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FPJT-BRT & https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VC7F-KK8)
Both of your Hammie's listed are showing as granddaughters of Hammie Sutton and at least one of the records gives her middle name of Elizabeth.
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@Anne LoForte Willson
Thank you for informing me about the infant Joe McCullen. I’ve been extensively researching my “seven generations” from my 4th great grandparents down on all sides so I could have plenty of ordinance work and just a family tree to show my family members on Ancestry, but I admit I’m not done yet with all descendant work though. I’m transferring my work from FamilySearch to Ancestry for the purpose of presenting this research to my family in an aesthetically pleasing way. I’ve just been working a lot on the more difficult gaps in my research lately.
You’re right about the Joe McCullen death certificate. Thanks for informing me. I should have been more observant. I’m not making any changes though unless I can back them up with something though.
Maybe I should look up the other witnesses? Are witnesses always relatives or cousins generally at that time, or can a random unrelated friend of the married couple or the Justice of the Peace(or coworker of said Justice) be a witness? Which is more common as a general rule?
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@Anne LoForte Willson
The McCullen mystery has recently had some new developments. I took your advice and asked other contributors to him on FamilySearch about it and one of them(elmoncurtisanders1) has been contributing to FamilySearch a long time and I have seen his contributions around everywhere for people in eastern NC.
“Looked over all that no show in Joseph and Archie records ever, yes his starts 1900, if there is a male still in McCullen line get DNA test. Festus Sutton, father was Julius King, never married gave name of Sutton to him.”
The wording of his response was confusing at first, but I think I got the gist of it. Basically, he looked through all the census records, and as you and I know, Wesley Joseph McCullen doesn’t show up in any censuses prior to 1900 with a father named Joseph McCullen or William Archibald(Archie) McCullen. But then he mentioned Festus Sutton, who I looked up and he had absolutely nothing to do with Wesley Joseph McCullen whatsoever. The two aren’t related at all to my knowledge, so I wondered why he brought Festus up. After he sent me that response, he spent some time last night making some changes to Hamie Elizabeth Sutton. I’ve edited two things that I knew were incorrect, but other than that, I’ve left the tree alone. I’ll give you the link not only to Hamie Elizabeth Sutton again but also to this new Festus Sutton. If you can see any correlation whatsoever besides the last name, please let me know. I haven’t been able to find anything as of yet.
Hamie Elizabeth Sutton: LZB3-QX4
Festus Durrant Sutton: K4R3-KDQ
Elmoncurtisanders made a few changes that were incorrect including a few changes based on assumptions. He changed Hamie’s death date from 1875 to 1870, which I changed back because she had children born after 1870. He also added nicknames to her name. Her name was listed as “Hainey Hanie Amy Hamie Elizabeth Sutton” by the time I saw it, and he also has a few “Also Known As” including Susanah(?)
I put the nicknames in the Title section so that they wouldn’t be listed as her name on the app when I look at her profile so I wouldn’t be taking out the information completely. Should I move all those profiles to Nicknames? I’m thinking of doing that to clean things up a bit.
These were little problems, but now I move on to the larger problem. Wesley Joseph McCullen is now connected to two sets of parents again; the same mother and two fathers, William Archibald McCullen and Joseph McCullen. The Joseph McCullen he had chosen as the possible father of Wesley was born approximately 1817, and married a Mariah Flowers(not Maria; there’s no sign of her name being Maria in the censuses; also I haven’t found a good tree on her on Ancestry yet with a good amount of sources to analyze; plus I’ve seen no proof that Flowers is her maiden name.” Anyway, Joseph is in the 1850, 1870, and 1880 census with Mariah and I have yet to check the 1860 census. Wesley isnt on the census with them either.
I think what Elmon was suggesting to me earlier was that because Festus Sutton was an illegitimate child who didn’t show up on a census until 1900 either(I will say they both share this in common for now), perhaps Wesley is an illegitimate child of Joseph and Hamie. It would make sense since the gap is enough between Andrew and Jasper for their to be another child in between. However, why didn’t Wesley live with one of his relatives and/or was adopted into his mother’s, father’s, or grandparent’s family? I havent been able to find Wesley Joseph at all prior to 1900, and there’s no proof of the birth. Did he live in an orphanage? These are questions that have to do with illegitimacy and how it was handled at the time. Because I have no proof of this and Elmon didn’t show proof of this, this whole thing seems like a jump to conclusions. Maybe he thinks DNA will solve the problem, but even so, where would he have been then between his birth and 1900? These are the developments I have found so far, but I will keep looking when I have the time. Thank you for all of your help with my questions so far. I appreciate it!
Sincerely,
Benjamin J
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Depends on the situation. If the couple was just running off by themselves, the witnesses would likely be whoever was around at the time (for a marriage by a Justice of the Peace ti might be a couple of clerks or the JP's wife, for a minister, his wife and an adult child, servant or even a handyman that was working there at the moment). In this case, being as they were married at Jasper McCullin's house (ie. a planned wedding) it would have been people who were close friends/family, so investigating who they were could quite possible help you in your research. Think 'FAN club' (Friends-Associates-Neighbors).
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OK, Took some time with this. I agree that he was suggesting that your Wesley might also be illegitimate and might appear under a different surname. Festus actually does show up in 1880 census with his mother, and Sutton grandparents and he carries the Sutton surname. So he might be suggesting DNA just to check if he really is genetically related to McCullens. I would say that because he was married at Jasper McCullen's house (is there only one Jasper McCullen?) that he is definitely connected to this family somehow. There is also the possibility that he was not at home when the census-taker stopped by his parents' house (staying with grandma?) and by the time the census-take got to where ever he had been (his grandparents?), he had gone home. Missing both 1870 and 1880 censuses is quite unusual...but possible.
EXAMPLE: My great-great-grandmother and her youngest son do not appear in the 1920 census. As I researched, I found that she was graduating from Palmer Chiropractic School in Iowa just the day prior to the census-taker arriving at her house in Utah (her husband and older children are listed!) She is also not listed anywhere in Davenport, Iowa, either. So I believe she missed the census-taker on both ends of that trip...
Relationship between Hamie Elizabeth Sutton and Festus Durrant Sutton? Well, they are both Suttons in the same geographical area, but his maternal grandfather does not have any parents listed so you can't tell how they might be related there. Festus marries into the Raynor line as well. So he may be implicating that the Sutton/Raynor families are quite tied together and that they might have tendencies to illegitimacy? I think he was just suggesting the possibility of illegitimacy for Wesley.
As for the alternate names for Hamie, I don't put every spelling variation down under alternate names. I only keep alternate names that are significantly different from the main name. I put as the main name the format that person used during their adult life; what he called himself. For example, that same great-great-grandmother of mine was born to the name Lorraine Belle Bowman, but during her adult life, she signed everything "Laura B." with whatever surname she currently had (she was married three times). So I personally consider her name Laura B. Bowman with Lorraine Belle Bowman as an alternate birth name. I wouldn't keep the variations "Lauraine Bell," "LaurAnn Belle," or "Laura" as alternate names, but I might mention them in the notes about her alternate name. That's just the way I think, though. There is no absolute for naming conventions in FamilySearch Family Tree.
So, have you done DNA testing? Do you show up matching other McCullens? I think Elmon was suggesting doing a Y-DNA test if you could find a direct-line male descendant. I think the reason for that is just that there are so many McCullens in that area for so many generations, you may find that you are related to McCullens even if Wesley wasn't the son of a McCullen. It is a good suggestion, but I think the answer is far more prosaic in that he was just missed in the censuses. It is pretty unusual, but can't possibly be any more unusual than to have the same family recorded twice in the census....and I have seen that as well.
One problem with Wesley being the illegitimate child of Hamie and a random Joseph McCullen is that Wesley is in the middle of her string of kids with her husband. Something like an illegitimate child would be likely to break off relations between a husband and wife, rather than increase them. Her kids are all nicely in that 18-months/2 years apart category. Especially with Wesley in there. With all the kids that they have, it isn't likely they felt the need to 'replace' one that might have died (in other words, try to find a child that would have been the same age as the child who died) You might investigate the other siblings as well, the only child listed with Archibald in 1880 is his youngest daughter, Lessie. As I look through all of the other kids, NONE of them except for Julius have a source to the 1880 census and Julius is living with an aunt, Susan Holland. So I think the 1880 census is a record problem for this family. The fact that the only one of the kids you can find is NOT living at home, but instead living out with a widowed lady and her single sister....seems to me that the rest of the family didn't get marked down somehow, or their surname is horribly different than McCullen or they are spread among all the other McCullen relatives and not found because they have some of the same names as other relatives.
You might also note, that Susan Holland is linked as sister to Archibald McCullen, but Rhoda McCullen (who is listed as her sister in the census) is linked to a Rhoda McCullen daughter of Early Buchanan McCullen. It might be worth investigating to see more about these relationships.
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