Can someone in Management help me understand why I cannot do this batch a No Extractable Data
Re batch: South Africa—Dutch Reformed Church Registers, 1660–1970 [Part D][M3FV-6T5]
Image Name008147542_01241 Batch IDM3FV-6T5
LET ME EXPLAIN: I found this project to review, opened the batch and found a page with contents of headers, labeled with: Naam (Name); Datum (Date); Plek (Place); BK.No (short for book number) and BLS (short for Bladsy/page nr)
The first line to index/review is Andries Frederik Eigelaar, Date (?), and Wynberg. I, (like hundreds of volunteers) didn't have a clue what this is all about. The experts can retrieve the Batch to see what the contents is all about and they see it is a book of baptistery. The first person A F Eigelaar is Baptized or Born? in Wynberg and the details is in Book no 65 on page 141. They are able to go to page 141 in the Batch and there are all the details of A F Eigelaar. Only THEN they were able to see the actual FULL DETAILED SOURCE, which is to be indexed/reviewed.
I have only this page to index/review and I can clearly see this is a book of names with surnames starting from A to Z, and I have the page with surnames starting with E. How can I do proper indexing from these pages?
My argument is: You tell me to index/review Andries F Eigelaar's details from a content's page, where as his full details is on page 141 i.e. Full name, Birth and Baptist Date, Father and Mother's names along with all the people who have stood in as witnesses to the event?
On which page of this book is this rule of "if there is a name, date and place, it must be indexed" to be applied?
Please let me and all the other volunteers know what your answer is, because the same batches gets send round and around for weeks now and still no one had come up with a proper answer as to why we should not do a No Extractable Data.
I am NOT in management, -- this page/batch is an index and, according to the PI should not be indexed, but marked NNED and submitted - here's why in my opinion -- the datum is an event date and there's nothing to suggest whether it is a birth, baptism or death - reference pages only go back 5 pages so that's no help, either. So, the real problem is Management or Team that keeps sending around the same batch over and over again --even when indexers/reviewers have correctly labeled the batch NNED --- someone told me once that the same batch can be sent out/made available as many as 10 times before FS gets a clue. So, to answer Hester's dilemma, in review just change the answer as to whether the batch should be indexed to NNED then hit Submit ----and special note to Hester, thank you for sharing all your knowledge of South Africa - you are a big help to everyone 😍 Mary😎0
Thank you Mary, for your kind words :). At least the real problem came to light and the volunteers who had tried to make sense out of this batches will also understand.
I would like to do NNED's to the same batches, but it would not solve the problem. I want Management to tell us it is ok to do a NNED on that index/contents pages, and make a change to the wording of the current Project instructions. That way the index/contents pages will go away and the actual source pages will be indexed at last, if not indexed already.
I hope you all understand how I explained the situation, English is my second language.
@susanjones7 these particular ones are typed indexes to the CAPE RING BOOK BAPTISMS, so must be entered as BAPTISM in the choice of record, but the DATE must go under the BIRTH date field of the entry. On whats coming through for review, you need to correct the date on all of them by moving it to the birth date fields, and blanking the baptism date field.
For all the others currently coming through for review in this exact typed format, where the record type has been incorrectly entered as births, memberships or burials, they need to cleared and sent back for reindexing. Unfortunately the names etc of the information is often correctly entered, but the way the project is set up, as soon as the record type is changed then the information is lost.
this was a on March 5 2023.
Under the heading no indication of whether a record is birth, death, baptism, marriage or membership.1
DianeLotherington you placed your answer to @susanjones7 under my question. Did you mean to answer some of what I have said in my letter that I wrote? I am a little confused with your answer. No offense to anyone.
@Hester Korff Wolmarans That response has been copied and pasted from a comment that Gary Noble wrote to answer a question susan jones posed on another thread from March 5th. I'm not sure why they think that date should go in the birth fields. It seems that a baptism registry would register the date of a baptism and a birth registry would register the date of a birth. Hope that makes sense.
Your batch is from Cape Province Baptism Records Indexes. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSK6-3QPL-R?view=explore&groupId=M9DT-TTB1
I am reviewing these same batches and have had the same questions as Hector, however my understanding of the project instructions differs.
I am not management and would very much like them to add clarification and correction.
The project instructions do clearly state in Baptism Registers Example 2 that these batches that look like indexes should be indexed as baptisms with the place indexed as the baptism place. However, they do need to correct the instruction to put the date as birth date instead of baptism date. Look back at these community help questions and you can see Gary Noble has found the original record (from the project instruction example 2) and the date is clearly the birth date. Unfortunately the register (index) did not add the baptism date.
I do think it is important to index the information from batches that look like indexes but have names, dates and locations. The project instructions definitely say to mark indexes with ONLY names and page numbers as No Extractable Data but these have dates and places also listed. The fact is a family researcher would be able to find two sources with the person's name, birthdate and baptism location from the register that looks like an index but has the important date and place listed (with the name) and the other more complete record (that often also has the parents and witnesses) would be a second source. The complete records are often handwritten and difficult to read so having these typed registers (indexes) can be a second chance to see names. This would give a researcher two sources to compare as the person's name does appear in two different places in these records in two different ways, handwritten and typed. For example in the handwritten names, a ij can look like y with an umlaut over it. The typed name might use either ij or type a y. I have read that Dutch does not use umlauts so ij would be correct in handwritten records.
As a reviewer, when these batches come to me as No Extractable Data, I mark them as baptisms, index them myself with the date as birth and the place as baptism because there is so much confusion I don't want to send them back to an indexer who hasn't had this information.
These batches are marked advanced and they certainly are challenging. Thanks to all who are helping clarify instructions1
@Hester Korff Wolmarans, That's okay -- English is my only language :) and I wish I could remember the French I learned 60 years ago in high school. 😎1
BarK1 the reason we have to index the information of a Church record is because the family want to see their ancestor's records. If they look for John Doe's baptist record they will look for a record like this:
- Child: John Doe
- Birth: 10 Nov 18xx
- Baptist date: 30 Nov 18xx
- Baptist Place: Knysna
- Father: John Doe, Mother: Mary Bright
- Witnesses: John Fred Doe, and so on
Do you think they will be satisfied with an index or contents page as a source or would they be satisfied with the real page where it is hand written (as you have stated) with all the details?
The best of all is that all the people from A to Z in the index pages have their actual source written in a book somewhere, that will be indexed!
Let me explain so that everyone who read this letter can also understand. An example: You read a book about different cars, and you start paging from the first page with Chapters 1 to Chapter 10 typed on the page. Each chapter is on a certain page number in the book. The index page shows you on what page number you can look for a certain car model or make and all the information about the car.
What would you do to get the info you are looking for. Stay on the index page, or go to the page that the index page shows you where to look for?
Just because the rules in the PI states you have to index the record if there is a name, date and place, it does not apply for each and every record. South African Church records can be a challenge because every bit of info is noted somewhere in a book, and the index/resource book is only for the clerks attention, not for public exibition. I suppose that is the case all over the world.
I agree if there is just a name and page number then NED. Unfortunately in this case there is also a place. I have never came upon this problem in all the years that I have been doing indexing and reviewing.
If Management doesn't step up and do something about it, it will go on for a long long long time. What is the perpoise for the FS Help then if nothing is going to be done about it. I might find the answer in South Africa.
To come back to this problem that I have started (why don't we do a NNED on this index/contents pages). What does this little note on the record mean?
According to me this is exactly what I have tried to show everybody that you cannot do indexing from this page. This note means each and everyone on this list do have a handwritten source as a duplicate record and the record is on the page number mentioned. Look at the columns: date = (the day); maand (month) ; jaar (year); folio (page number). This cannot possibly be indexed, because there is no indication if it is a: church membership-, baptist-, a birth record. Are the dates on the page the events that were taking place? No one knows, and as a reviewer who has to fix the problem that the indexer did, I have to decide is this an NNED or not. If I go according to the Project rules, how can I differentiate between what this page is about?
Please review the Project Rules again.