First in, First out v.s. last in first out - in Temple queue
For the sake of argument, let's have a reserved queue of 1 million names started well over a decade ago. Which names will be picked to be done by the system first, the last one entered or the first one submitted?
When will the first one submitted decades ago, get queued in for temple work?
At the moment, (I do not have that million names, but I know someone who does) I see in my own experience, that names I have submitted a while ago, will never get addressed by the system until any recent names have been tagged, printed and processed first.
For those first names to be completed by the system, I have to stop submitting names until that first name is finally addressed.
Can we please have this process reversed, so the system looks at the oldest names submitted first and pulls those for processing? In programming, we call it FIFO instead of LIFO. It should be simple enough to implement.
Comments
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Robert
It's 'Brett'.
I have responded, in some of your previous posts ...
Just in passing ...
'Food for thought' ...
FYI
The REAL Problem/Issue, is that, there are, MANY; Many; many, individuals/persons, whose Work, was "Share[d] with the Temple System", some YEARS ago; where, that Work, is literally, in LIMBO, 'no man's land' ...
Here is just ONE example ...
Which, is actually confirmed, by 'FamilySearch' ...
Here is a "Knowledge Article", in 'FamilySearch':
Ordinances reserved between 2007 and 2009 are not completed
There are, many other cases; and, reasons WHY ...
Just my thoughts.
I know, that this certainly does not help/assist; but, I hope, that this may provide you with, some additional, insight; and, perspective.
Brett
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Yes, I acknowledge that there was a bug in the system back then. I personally stopped submitting names at that time, so I could reduce my queue down from 10,000 to 3. I had to call in each of those final three individually, because the work had actually been completed by others, but the system had not been able to remove the names from my queue without intervention. One. at. a. Time.
So now I'm back up with lots of names in my queue again - and I know with the physical distancing issues, this got much more "congested" over the last year or so - and I see that the repeated "request" over the years for FIFO has not been realized.
I personally am relooking at my temple reserved queue and releasing those names I find where others are working the same lines, so they can hopefully continue the work, without too much interruption (released from the queue while waiting) from the other side of the veil.
The names I submitted in 2019 have not been touched as far as I can tell, because I believe that there are so many that haven been submitted since then and so appear to be in a presumed LIFO situation.
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Robert
'Yes' ...
And, it also depends, on your "Temple" District ...
My "Share[d] with the Temple System", List, are getting done SLOWLY, maybe one of two every Week or so ...
But, I 'heard' from a Member (Friend), over in "North America", on the "East Coast", that they are getting through their, "Share[d] with the Temple System", List, much FASTER ...
Now, that there is, a SINGLE "Pool" for the "Temples" to "Pull Down" from, hopefully, things will MOVE along ...
Brett
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I am in a small temple district, but I am seeing notifications on a daily basis that are a positive force for good. However, they are still appearing as Last to be submitted, First to be processed.
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Robert
Point taken ...
I have never bothered, to take any notice, of such ...
I am just glad, to be getting, SOME (ie. ANY) Work done ...
Brett
ps: As an aside ...
For what it is worth ...
For that Work, that is 'stuck in the doldrums', one alternative, that I have 'heard' of; and, that I believe works, is to, "Unshare" with the "Temple System"; and, then, immediately, "Re-Share" with the "Temple System".
ie. It 'seems' to "Re-Set" the 'Status' ...
'Yes', that Work gets put, at the 'End of the Queue'; but, it 'seems', to get that Work, out of LIMDO; and, the Work actually 'seems' to get done.
You might want to consider, giving that ago, with one or two, of the OLDER ones, just to 'see' (ie. "Test"), whether that works.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained ...
Certainly, nothing to loose ...
Good Luck.
.
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Yes, that does work, but why should it even be done? When we are dealing with thousands. First come, first served should be the rule and not the exception.
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Robert
I am NOT disagreeing with you ...
"First In", First Out", would be great ...
I am just providing, a 'Work Around', an 'Alternative' ..
UNTIL ...
Such time; as, such is addressed/fixed ...
And, I would humbly suggest, that such will NOT happen SOON / QUICKLY ...
As, there are, at least, TWO (x2) Databases involved, they being:
(1) The "Family Tree" Part, of 'FamilySearch'; and,
(2) that of used by the "Temples", for "Temple" Work.
BOTH those of those programmes/application, must "Synchronize" ...
The WHOLE "Process", is NOT as SIMPLE, as most People would think ...
It is a MASSIVE Worldwide undertaking/operation ...
As ...
(1) The "Family Tree" Part, of 'FamilySearch', is used by MANY People, from ALL the various, "Countries"; and, "Unions", around/throughout, the World; and,
(2) There are "Temples" in MANY of the various, "Countries"; and, "Unions", around/throughout, the World.
In this instance, I am just being pragmatic.
Everything, in good time ...
I, like to consider; and, take, the alternatives, if they are acceptable and work.
Hey ...
But, that is just me ...
Each to their own ...
Now ...
All That Said ...
Again ...
'Yes' ...
"First In", First Out", would be great ...
Brett
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I would like to see a positive push for the practical. An acknowledgement of the issue and then seeing it raised to a level where it is being addressed by the programmers and then resolved. The current status is a disincentive to submit names.
Here is a scenario as a workaround. Crazy I know, but if 17 million members submitted just one name at a time, say just for a 24-hour period, would those names all get done in a day or two? If not, why not? If yes, then they submit another 17 million in two days. Wash, rinse, repeat.
Now if just one person submitted 17 million names in that same 24 hours, would only one name get done at a time, because only one person did the submittal? See the logic?
Serial processing (one person) vs parallel processing (everybody on the planet) vs starting at the front of the relational database and working through it, instead of only addressing the most recently submitted and ignoring the first in line. And on that, it should be a relational database, because we are all related.
First in - first out, is Database Management 101.
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😀
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My temple file names usually begin having Baptisms done about 2 years after being submitted.
it can take another 2-4 years to get the rest of the ordinances done.
This is at the Ft Lauderdale FL Temple. I believe it can vary from area to area but I believe that the church has made efforts in recent years to make it more consistent (the rate of processing) no matter what temple you are at. (temple file names can and do get distributed and done at temples across the world but more seem to get routed to the local temple then to distant temples)
and in all my experience it has always been FIRST IN FIRST OUT
Occasionaly however I have had names that for whatever weird reason just dont seem to be in the active queue any more (even though they are on the list in FamilySearch) even though they are not complete. But that has been very rare for me.
As others have stated there have been some anomalies over the years though as to how it works and I do believe there are groups of temple names that may have been submitted that are stuck in limbo and will probably never make it out of limbo without being canceled and resubmitted or done as Personal Names (instead of temple file)
If you had submitted names in these period of bugs/anomolies and they got "stuck in limbo: it could indeed be the case that you sense a LIFO instead of FIFO processing. but for names not stuck in limbo - I feel it is always FIFO. but thats just from my own experience.
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I have not seen anything about the current function of the temple queue. At some point is the near future, if it has not already, the temple queue , according to presentations I have heard, going to be a single, first in, first out queue as you state it should be.
To summarize what I have heard in a variety of RootsTech and other presentations is that, ignoring the occasional system glitch, each temple district had their own first in, first out queue. When we submitted names, they would go to our own temple district's list. This did mean there could be a wide variance in how quickly ordinances would be completed depending on attendance in a particular district and how many patrons brought their own cards to the temple. Apparently in some districts the rate of patrons bringing their own cards is so high that temple queue names were hardly ever used.
The updated system, as mentioned, will be one queue. There will no longer be a separate queue for each temple district and names will be taken in the first in, first out order.
However, this does not mean that submitted names will necessarily be completed first in, first out order since once a name is in the temple list, any family member can pull it as a 90 day reservation and complete it years before it would be otherwise. Also, Ordinances Ready does not pull in first in, first out order. It pulls names as closest available relative first, again potentially completing ordinances years before the ones at the head of the line who do not have relatives actively looking for family or using Ordinances Ready.
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So it is literally a "relational" database. Hahahah!
I appreciate your responses.
I am in the Columbia River Temple district. For the longest time. names went into the Salt Lake distribution point for baptisms and confirmations, but the Endowments and Sealings seemed to always migrate their way back to the submitter's origin, to be completed here.
Only recently have I seen an uptick in activity on names I've submitted - and that is wonderful! Baptisms and Confirmations are still being widely distributed, based on notifications received so far.
I had a large queue for a few years, but then a bug in the system was bothering me and I stopped submitting names (about three years), so I could eventually get down to those few buggy components. After they got resolved, I began loading back up to where I had 9,000 + in my queue again over the last year. At the moment, I am whittling it back down and locating other distant cousins who are actively working on those lines and handing those profiles off, so they can finish the sacred work we started locally. Locating them is taking a bit of detective work.
I just don't want to get blocked (account frozen) by Salt Lake, for having too many profiles in my queue and hopefully, I will be seen as one who demonstrates due diligence in allowing more direct temple-attending relatives the opportunity to work on their more closely related ancestral lines.
I have been suggesting this as an instructional modus operandi for others who have may be in similar circumstances. I have filtered my queue with the oldest date of submittal first and working forward, cleaning up and updating profiles as I go. I've managed to get it only as old as July 2019 now. I am adding a lot of green icons along the way, so the fields are "white", all ready to harvest. ;^)
I'm kind of torn between submitting, while I can, so when it is my time to slip across the veil, I can truthfully report there, that the temple work is in the queue and I won't be accosted with spiritual tongue lashings. I fully anticipate the tongue lashings. I got those tongue lashings from the living, when I had to reroute thousands of names that had been printed on temple cards to Salt Lake, because we were way over-capacity at the Columbia River Temple. I kept the clipped cards at that time and I saw the work being completed over the next three years and I then resubmitted those few who still had not had their work completed. Those who did the literal tongue lashings then, are now on the other side of the veil.
I will do what I can, while I can, within the parameters I have been given.
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I have no reason to believe your account would be frozen - if that really is what you meant.
I know plenty of people who have thousands of names (in their temple file reservation list)
the personal file now maxes out at 300. but they dont freeze your account log on just prevent you from reserving more.
and the good thing is even if you have a large number (on your temple file) - it does NOT block other people from from taking those same names and getting them done ahead of the temple file schedule.
Yeh totally a relational database - PUN intended
for those with an IT background.
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Pun wholeheartedly accepted.
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Another option is the Family Group. You can put names in there and then invite others to draw from it when they are going to the temple. It could expedite some of you names. ???
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Yes, that is an excellent option.
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My shared names are being pulled and done by extended "family" all over the world several each week. I love that. In addition my more immediate family and I go to my shared with the Temple list prior to any Temple visit and have been able to knock our numbers down gradually. Our family is scheduling "double" Temple trips - putting Endowment with Initiatories in the same trip, etc... When all of our family does that, instead of 12 ordinances per year per family member, it is 72 per family member and if we can go twice a month - It is 120 ordinances per person per year - and that is getting that list going fast! To us, this is the answer and we don't need to worry about the system. I think we are very much encouraged by those on the other side of the veil in our family plan! There is an urgency to fill the Temples.
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All
FYI
Although, this matter of "Family Groups", is a deviation, of the original problem/issue, that was raised ...
As, the matter of "Family Groups", has been raised ...
"Heads-Up" ...
EXCITING stuff ...
It is here ...
And, available ...
[ No less, in the "Production" (ie. "Live") Environment ... ]
It appears NOW, that we CAN be members, of MORE than just ONE, "Family Group".
ie. We CAN now, be members, of MULTIPLE, "Family Groups".
[ Well, I would suggest, up to a MAXIMUM of, maybe, at least, Ten (x10) ... ]
[ If, the "Beta" (ie. "Test") Environment, is any example ... ]
And, as such, NOW, we can have, not ONLY, Family Groups (and, a number of); but, that there CAN also be the likes of, Ward Groups; Elder Quorums Groups; Relief Society Groups; Young Mens Groups; Young Womens; and, even, Stake Groups (and, more), to hep/assist, with getting the "Temple" Work done, in haste.
I just had a 'look', there is NO LONGER, a bar from "Creating" a SECOND or More "Family Groups".
And, I was "Sent", an "Invite", to a "Family Group"; and, able to "Join" a SECOND "Family Group", despite ALREADY being the member, of ANOTHER, "Family Group".
Then, I initiated, the process, to "Create" ANOTHER, "Family Group".
Hooray ...
Whoopee ...
Enjoy ...
Brett
ps: 'Robert', sorry, for the diversion ...
.
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Also for anyone who has submitted very large numbers of temple names now in the temple file queue for various years now (Especially if you have submitted such names via third party apps such as Roots Magic etc.)
You really should on occasion spot check them to see what percent (if any) of your queue records actually have duplicate records also in Familytree - with the duplicate record already having some or all of the work done.
Normally when we submit new records the duplicate check is done up front which is good
BUT as time goes by some times duplicate records can sneak into the system and can even get done before your queue gets done. and the duplicate algorithms have changed over time and are never perfect.
AND if you use third party apps to upload temple data (such as Roots Magi etc.)
some times these third party apps are not great at detecting the duplicates and you may end up with a
large number of records in your temple file queue that actually already have their work done on a duplicate records.
and what a waste that is if you are clogging up the temples with thousands of names if the work has already been done for a large percent.
so it is a good thing to spot check occasionally to see if you are falling into this scenario.
and if you are you do have the option to merge such records and the record merging will / can result in the temple queue record being pulled from the queue because the work is known to be done already.
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I have seen that in action. Thank you for the reminder about checking profiles in the temple queue. I even see additional helps with a few of those tagged names and I include that data, which also encourages me to go up and down those lines to look deeper, go out and find more data to be included and make each profile "more perfect".
It is very genealogy "whack-a-molish", but well worth the effort.
I do not spot check. I start at the back of the list (oldest submittal date) and move forward.
Your 2nd point is spot on. Hopefully my % of duplicate entries is not large. That is what is driving me! Any work we do in mortality, affects those who have moved beyond, who have way more important things to do than have to sit through yet one more ordinance again for the same person. And please believe me, I've been told! It is NOT a good experience being berated by someone from the other side, who is being pulled away from their preparatory work for the 2nd Coming.
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We need to emulate your success. Thank you so much for sharing.
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I have three and a half thousand names in Temple File. Some have been waiting since 2012. Not many relatives to do them and Covid limits are making it slow.
I know that many are now being done in temples around the world but I am convinced that they are being taken last in first out, or at the very best randomly.
I really feel for those in the spirit world who were so excited their names had been found and submitted - and have been waiting 10 years.
Is there no way to get them taken FIFO?
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in general they ARE done in FIFO
if you look at some of the ordinances that have been done recently n temples around the world.
and bring up the person record in Family TRee
you should be able to see what the reservation date was and you should be able to see a specific trend and provide specific dates and scenarios.
as has been stated you might have some portion of names that are stuck in the queue due to some bug or anomaly but among those that are not stuck in the queue you should by looking at reservation dates see the FIFO in action.
for example if you pick Recent Endowments completed you can pick those same people and bring up their ordinance dates in Family Tree and the endowment date would now show the recent date of completion - but with Sealings still pending - on those ordinances it would still show the reservation date. (this assuming that you reserved all the ordinances for temple file)
as others have stated though if people were drawing from these names to put on personal non temple file then it can change the perception of how things are getting done.
For those that are truly "stuck in limbo" (for example if you have baptisms that are still pending after 5 years or so than I would try to see if you could print the baptims off and give to a youth group or something - because if they have waited that long chances are something in the process is not working and they will probably never come off the queue.
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I have one printed in the system by the system still pending from 2015. I'll have to call Salt Lake to get it out of my queue.
A person I know with over 1 million (yes really) in his queue, has names in there from 2005. He is waiting to get unblocked (happened a couple of weeks ago and thus triggered this dialogue.)
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PaulaHarris,
What I have been somewhat successful at doing, is locating other relatives who are actively doing temple work and offering them names from my queue that they can "take over" and finish ordinances we started. I stated earlier that it requires "detective work", but that is also how I had created my "Temple Cousin Team" of over 100 or so, back when my parents were still living. I would like to believe that team was a precursor to the "Family Group" function now being used, which is the 2nd viable option for your names still pending from 2012.
When I was assisting in the temple office, there was a "standby stack" of printed sheets up high in a corner of the office that was only used when all other resources, such as the Internet or no family files, were available. I always figured many of my names I had submitted were up in that bundle and was why they were in limbo. I would suggest that perhaps the temples round the world could cycle through those, if those stacks still exist.
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The exercise of offering up names that I had previously reserved to others, has been a positive, fruitful experience, where feedback has been things like; "Thank you for releasing my grandfather or great-grand father (or whomever), so I can take him through the temple". That alone is heartwarming and wonderful.
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So in "specific", as in my and Paula's cases, we see what appears to be LIFO, no doubt triggered by the "relative" database algorithm ("seek ye first the nearest blood relative"). When some of us deal with "large" databases accrued over decades, our "nearest" may be out beyond 15 generations and we apparently "perceive" things differently. That's okay. At least now we have an idea of what is really going on, based on the information provided here. And we now know at least a couple of ways in how to deal with it.
By the way, your input has been marvelous and I personally thank each of you. I humbly appreciate the inspired advice and counsel given.
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anyone should be able to pull a name that is stuck in their queue and UNRESERVE it. (and then re-reserve if they wish)
You dont have to "Call Salt Lake" for that.
reservation lists above like 10,000 (temple file) or so really bog down the system tools used to display them
and at some point you would hit some sort of system resource limitation to be able to see the names on your temple view. (let alone even being able to submit that many names in the first place)
A person could have a million names in a local database file from which they extract names to Temple file -
but a million names in a single persons Temple File Queue - - send a screen shot of that . . . . LOL
even if you performed one ordinance every single day - you would still be doing the temple work even beyond the last days of the next 1000 year millennium. It would take about 3,000 years . . .
actually it would take about 6 x 3,000 years if you assume one ordinance a day - since their are 6 ordinances per person.
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Nothing can be done on this end after a name has already "printed" by the system. But no action seems to have occurred since being printed. That is what I am referring to.
Please do not confuse the two "reserved" queues. The limit for "own" temple queue is 300. There is no upper limit at the moment for what once was called the "Temple Do" queue. I haven't met it anyway - nor intend to! However, having lots of names there does tend to make it bog down when refreshing the list. I so testify.
Oh, and the "limit" for notifications is 3,000. Then the oldest drops off as new ones are reported. I wish it would just allow all notifications for the last two years instead.
I do not have access to the distant cousin's Temple page in his account with over a million reservations. He doesn't either at the moment, having been "benched" by Salt Lake. And I would not be at liberty to divulge his information anyway. ;^) Perhaps he will read this later and volunteer it. He did say that his "own" queue had about 100 names in it and he shares those with his small "Family Group".
His names are not "local". His names are in his queue on FamilySearch.
At one time, I had figured out approximately how long the six temple ordinance processes took by manpower (and womanpower). I published the results in detail to my Temple Cousin Team way back then.
The trigger was my mother holding onto her names and not submitting them to the system, because she said she "had a personal relationship" with each of the 40,000+ names she had. My attempt was to prove she was never, ever going to be able to complete the temple work for them and she needed to share the blessings with others. So without including time to research, drive to and from, getting suited up and down and "waiting", it worked out to around 22 hours, including temple worker time, witness time, recording time, as well as proxy time. Twenty-two hours for one profile.
I think I posted earlier, but I was able to do one name, from beginning to end, in one very long day. And I was able to do that a few times. I had concluded that it probably would be more efficient, effective and fruitful as a convert, if an individual did that for his or herself, as a living human being over their lifetime.
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agreed there are two queues
I wasnt confusing them,
there is no published limit for the temple file , nor really any specific limit per se but at some point there is an effectual limit whereby limited available system resources (which vary over time) would prevent you from submitting, processing, even displaying such a long list of names because the list would be just too massive. This number would probably be under 20,000 names. there is an effectual limit way under one million names which is why your friend probably got shut down. because the system was never designed to handle even close to that many names per submitter - and however many names he did have - have probably long ago been deleted from the system to save system resources.
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