A divorced spouse with no children is still a spouse ?
On an empty nester marriage that ends with divorce, looks like the divorce event does nothing to the tree. The person is still shown as a spouse in the details page and still shown as a thumbnail even though there is no genealogical contribution.
In such scenario do you edit detail to "remove person" from couple relationship ? ... but by doing so will you change history ? How would people know these two were spouses at some point ? Will it also delete marriage and divorce events and notes ?
I am confused how to handle this.
Welcome to the "Community.FamilySearch" Forum.
I am just another 'lowly' User/Patron ...
Just in passing ...
Short Answer: Definitely NOT.
DO NOT either,
(1) "Remove"/"Delete" the individual/Person; and/or,
(2) "Remove"/"Delete" the "Couple" Relationship.
Just LEAVE such "As Is" ...
"Divorce" is merely an "Event" ... nothing more, nothing less ... just like ALL Other "Events" (eg. Marriage)
Just my thoughts.
Thank you Brett ! ... Looks like it's customary to leave it alone, so I'll follow your advice.
It would be nice if it at least crossed out the name to give a visual clue or something0
'No' ... NOT "Crossed Out" ...
What we WANT; and, many of us, have been asking for (ie. requesting), for many Years now, is either,
(1) To "List" the "Divorce" (under "Marriage"); OR,
(2) In the least, have an "Indicator", that an "Event" of "Divorce", has been included (ie. Recorded).
The problem/issue is, that "Listing" a "Divorce" (under "Marriage") would use EXTRA 'real-estate' (ie. space).
And, believe it or not, there are some "Couples", that "Married"; then, "Divorced; then, "Married" again; and, "Divorced" again - and, I have heard of one such Couple that did so, on multiple occasions.
Recording such, just in a "Preview" set-up (as is the case, on the Person/Details" page/screen, under "Family Members" Section), would be very 'Messy'.
And, in any case, ONLY the FIRST (or, EARLIEST) "Event" is displayed.
Subsequent "Events", appear (ie. are "Listed"), in the "Couple" Relationship, under the "Relationship Events" Section.
You CANNOT list EVERYTHING ...
Yeah, I was referring to some kind of a visual clue, both on the tree and in detail view. (The idea of a strikethru was just me thinking out loud, doesn't have to be that exactly)
It could be a small icon overlay to visually indicate the dissolution of a marriage. Without adding lines and taking space on the interface.1
Something like this. Maybe ?4
I like that suggestion. It would be a great addition to the tree. Please consider adding this as an idea here in the Community. The FamilySearch Engineers do look at these ideas and use them as a basis for their future improvements to the system.2
No to discourage ...
That Said ...
Even likes of that suggestion:
Has been touted/proffered, over the many YEARS, in this; and, the previous 'iterations', of the 'FamilySearch' "Feedback" Forum(s) - it is NOTHING "New".
We are STILL waiting ...
Very little of what we strive to do is "new". Yet, we keep trying to improve. Persistence sometimes pays off. Otherwise why bother? The truth is that that not all ideas will be taken up by FS engineers, but many are. Their priorities just may not match ours. Changes may be slow to come, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't encourage change and facilitate improvement. We sometimes just have to be patient until the desired change happens.4
So true ...
I am sure, that 'FamilySearch" is working on it ...
They have been working, on "Changes", to the "Couple" Relationship side of things, for some time ...
There have been some "Changes" (eg. 'Event' of "Lived Together"; "Same Gender" Relationships; etc) ...
There are many competing priorities, in "Family Tree" (and, the OTHER "Parts"), of 'FamilySearch'; and, there are Very LIMITED "Resources", available to, 'FamilySearch'.
I just like to let newcomers know, what is going on ...
[ ie. Some Background ... ]
Newcomers, do not have the knowledge, of the HISTORY (ie. past; or, more recent), of 'FamilySearch'.
And, many Users/Patrons think, that things are so, SIMPLE; and, EASY, to "Change"; when, in fact they are NOT ...
Just keeping it real ...
I do not like changing history. The fact that a person had a spouse, and that marriage ended in divorce with no children, doesn't preclude other important things from happening. What if one of those 2 names turns up as informant on the other's death certificate? How will someone know who it is after time goes by? Or what if the divorced spouse remained friends with children of the ex's first spouse, and appears in a number of family photos. My position is NEVER change history by pretending it didn't happen, and to say there is no genealogical contribution - well I just gave you 2 examples of where that may not be true.0
I agree that history should not be changed, but it should not be falsified either.
A divorce means a person is no longer a spouse (used to be, but no more) so it is no longer accurate to indicate them as a spouse. By ignoring divorce events the tree is falsifying the current state of a person's relationships.1
@ThomasAn Yes, that is correct. I was addressing the discussion of whether these ex's should be removed from the tree because they don't contribute genealogically.0
What does a genetic contribution (or lack thereof) have to do with genealogy? People don't need to be genetically related in order to be family, and an ex-spouse definitely counts as family (grouping everyone as family, friend, acquaintance, or stranger).2
Thing is, if we are tracking relationships regardless of contributions to the tree of life, then we are doing facebook. Genealogy is a biological descendancy tree (the prefix "gene" also relates to genetics, and generations).
The term "spouse" is an abstraction, it means a formal declaration to the community as an intention to produce heirs with that person. If that didn't happen then is it different than a close friendship ? Do we track boyfriend/girlfriends relationship on genealogy trees ?1
Genetic genealogy is a (small) subset of genealogy. There are many familial relationships that have absolutely nothing to do with biology.
Marriage doesn't necessarily include any intention of producing heirs. There are many, many examples of widows and widowers marrying well past the age of childbearing. Would you consider them to be not actually married? What about infertility? Are adopted children somehow fake family, forbidden from showing up on a ::gasp:: _family_ tree?
Biology is only a very small part of the story. Heck, genetically, my sister and I should be a single node on the tree, as we are identical twins. Should I be putting her as my child's mother, since that's what the DNA indicates?3
@ThomasAn Are you really saying that as soon as you reach an ancestor that is truly an "in-law" with no possible relation to you by blood, you will not update that record with genealogy information you may be in possession of?0
You could also document under "Other Information" as a "Custom Event." I created one for my parents' divorce.0
If you are looking for a visual clue on the Details page - You can enter a divorce date and place by clicking on the edit button to the right of the couple. When you do, it will show up on the Details page of the person where the marriage information appears as long as it is the only event or if it is the most recent event entered. Just click on Add Event in the popup and then use the drop down arrow to change the event to divorce instead of marriage. Type in the date, place and reason, then click Save.0
@sgsreader, you're mistaken: unfortunately, the couple box shows only the least recent relationship event that has been entered. That is, if you enter both the marriage and the divorce, only the marriage will show unless someone clicks the pencil icon and then "edit" on the events section of the flyout. ("Beware of the leopard"-level obfuscation.)1
I did say that "as long as it is the only event or if it is the most recent event entered". I'm not sure what you mean by "least recent relationship" but you may be saying the same thing. If you have both a marriage and a divorce, then only one will show - and it will be the most recent event entered. If you are looking to have both the marriage and the divorce show on the Details page, then I don't think that is possible. I've been experimenting in Beta and can't find a way to get both to show there.0
No, I'm saying that you have it exactly backwards. It displays the earliest event entered. (Least recent = earliest.) If you enter the three banns, the wedding, and then a divorce, what it will display is the date and place that the banns were first posted. If two different versions of the same event get entered, one of them with just the year and one with the full date, it'll display the one with just the year, because that's interpreted as Jan. 1 of that year. Here, I'll demonstrate on the beta (sandbox) site:
As you can see, only the chronologically first event is displayed. This means that the only way a divorce will display is if the marriage is not entered, or if it is entered with an incorrect date.
Basically the only way to get more than one relationship event to show on the detail page is to enter one or both under Other as custom events.2
Paul W ✭✭✭✭✭
This is why, whilst linking a source, I rarely carry across an event date / place from a marriage record. FamilySearch does not usually differentiate between the actual marriage and a banns or licence record, so if you unwittingly carry one of the latter across, being an earlier date, this replaces the correct marriage date / details on the couple's Person pages. As there is no pick-list for the detail you want to be displayed on the Person pages, it often comes to having to delete really useful information from the Relationship Events section in order to get the preferred (usually "correct") event displayed. (Julia illustrates this in her post.)
It is a disappointment to many of us that FamilySearch can't provide the resources to develop the whole of the Couple Relationship area, which has been in urgent need of attention for many years. (This would hopefully include enhancements to deal with divorce data, too.)2
Another idea is to list the divorce in the alternate information area. Also, you can make a note of the divorce in the Life Sketch section at the top of the details page. I always assume that there was a divorce when I see that another marriage occurred and the original spouse is not deceased.
Hope that this helps you out.
Sincerely, Rayleen Barnes0
@ThomasAn As I have reviewed the comments made about annotating the divorce record and having is show on the detail page of an individual, all that is necessary is to add the divorce date and place is to edit marriage event. It is necessary to have it be the last event or at the top of the list. The divorce date and place will then show on the detail page of the individual. The problem still exists that anyone who adds another marriage date because it will them be placed on top of the list. And you cannot lock it in place.0
Just in passing ...
The real point, of this post, is that on an individual's/person's "Person/Details" page/screen, in the "Family Members" Section, an "Event" such as "Divorce", is NOT (and, CANNOT), be displayed.
The reason for such; being, that ONLY the EARLIEST Dated "Event" WILL be displayed.
[ eg. As, "Marriage" comes BEFORE "Divorce"; then, ONLY the "Event" of "Marriage" will be displayed ... ]
The 'workaround', is to record such "Events", in Chronological Order, in the "Other Information" Section.
That Said ...
Until 'FamilySearch', actually makes significant "Changes", to the "Family Members" Section (eg. specifically, for "Couples"), on the "Person/Details" page/screen, of individuals//persons; then, later "Events" (ie. such as "Divorce") will NOT appear - ie. be displayed.
Like, MANY; Many; many, of us over the Years, have recommended/suggested (an enhancement, by way of "Feedback"), 'ThomasAn' has recently ALSO provided such "Feedback":
'Category' = Suggest an Idea
HOME > FAMILYSEARCH HELP > SUGGEST AN IDEA
Divorce indicator on Person's relationship list (under spouses and Children)
Who knows ...
Maybe, such has ALREALY been considered; and, either, has been dismissed; or, is ALREADY in train ...
We have been asking for/requesting such ... forever ... certainly NOT "New" ...
We can but live in hope.
Just my thoughts.
@MarvinG, it appears that you, like others, are mistaken about what shows on the detail page in the couple box.
Once again: it ONLY shows the EARLIEST event entered for that relationship.
A divorce, by definition, is always later than the corresponding marriage, so divorces entered in a couple's relationship area almost never show on a person's detail page. The only ways to get them to show up in the couple box are to omit or delete the marriage event(s) or to enter incorrect dates.1