Why are the sections of DFN 8197497 all mislabeled?
The links do not lead to the churches listed. All of the churches are there but most are not in the link indicated.
Best Answer
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As I explained on your other thread, there is nothing wrong with the catalog listings for this film. They are all perfectly accurate, referring to the six different items from four different churches that are on this film.
Jerusalem Gemeinde is on two different films. It's item 8 on a film also containing records from Epiphany, Cross, and Plymouth UCC.
St. Matthew's is items 5 and 6 on the film you named. The first item on the film is indeed Jerusalem, but that's exactly what the catalog says:
Jerusalem Gemeinde is items 1 and 2 on the film that St. Matthew's is on.
Salem is item 3 on that same film.
Lake Park is item 4.
This is all verbatim from the catalog, and it matches the films exactly.
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Answers
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Here are the errors in the listing.
The film labeled Evangelisch Lutherische Jerusalem Gemeinde but is actually the records from Cross Lutheran Church.
The records labeled St. Matthew's are for Jeruselem Gemeinde.
Those labeled Jeruselem Gemeinde are for Epiphany and Cross.
The film labeled Salem contains records for Jerusalem, Salem, Lake Park and St. Matthew's.
How is a researcher going to find anything when misdirected by the catalog?
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Unfortunately, with great difficulty for the time being, as the Catalog is currently being reworked, so no changes to details are being made.
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Thank you for one of the very few rational replies that I have received.
I do not expect any correction immediately. However, the people reworking the catalog should be made aware of the serious error so that it can be corrected during the reworking of the catalog.
Is there any way to at least report this error to the people working on the catalog?
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Rationality or lack thereof aside - you can judge so yourself by viewing the confusion which remains.
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This is the point that has not been made clear!
If one makes a specific report - as you have done here - will it be passed on to the "Catalog section" to add to "the list" - or is there no "list" being kept and all such reports need to be held back until the new version of the Catalog is in operation, and changes can then be made?
Perhaps a FamilySearch employee would be kind enough to provide an answer to this question, as there are constant reports on this forum of errors / incorrect links, etc. within the Catalog.
(Until last year, there was a direct link within the Catalog section to report errors, but it was quite a while before users were made aware of the reason the link had disappeared.)
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The previous person, Julia Szent-Györgyi, is telling you correctly. I will try to explain in more detail.
We assume that you searched for Film number 8197497 and came to this page:
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/results?count=20&query=%2Bfilm_number%3A8197497
There are four results.
The first one is St. Matthew's Evangelical Lutheran Church. If you click on it, it goes to this page: https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/577590?availability=Family%20History%20Library
If you go to the Film/Digital Notes section, it will tell you that this is Items 5-6.
The second result is for Salem Evangelical Lutheran Church. If you click on it, you get to this page: https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/577139?availability=Family%20History%20Library
If you go to the Film/Digital Notes section, it will tell you that this is Item 3.
The third result is Evangelisch Lutherische Jerusalem Gemeinde. If you click on it, you get to this page: https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/577137?availability=Family%20History%20Library
If you go to the Film/Digital Notes section, it tells you that it is Item 8 on film 1392646 DGS 7857913 and Items 1-2 on Film 1392647 DGS 8197497.
The fourth result is Salem Evangelical Lutheran Church. If you click on it, you get to this page: https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/577139?availability=Family%20History%20Library
You will notice that all of those search results have Item numbers. What you are not understanding is when you click on a camera, it always takes you to Item 1 on the film. You have to look for the other items. This article explains: Browse film images in Historical Records, (See the heading Browse tips and notes). It tells you to look for the leading image for each section. Here is a link to the leading image for Item 5, which is St. Matthew's Evangelical Lutheran Church: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSL2-HSWR-Q?i=471&cat=577590.
Note that in this film, the leading images are black with white letters. They aren’t always, but you should be able to scroll down, when in the thumbnail view, and spot them easily because they look different than the other images. Item 5 is where you need to start on this film to look for records from St. Matthew's Evangelical Lutheran Church.
If you want to get back to the thumbnail view from an image, you will click on the icon that looks like a Rubik’s Cube with the lower right-hand square missing. It is beneath the + and – sign at the top left of the image.
Hopefully this helps you to understand better.
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@RIPoole Thanks for the clarity and education moment.
Question: If in the future I were to respond to a specific record question to someone looking for records in the Catalog - something you may appreciate I am a little leery of doing at the moment. Would it be best to open the starting image that they are looking for and copy the URL and post that to them? As I learn I want to provide the best answer I can for the level of specificity the FamilySearch 'guest' is asking. I failed this time but hope to learn how to better do so next time.
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@genthusiast 1 are you a FS staff member or an "ordinary" user ? Your last post suggests the former. It is helpful for everyone that staff members or representatives of FS have the "mod" [moderator] label beside their name, so that everyone knows if they're talking to an official representative of FS, or a fellow user of FS.
As for images of historical records, it is best to provide a URL rather than a copy of the image. That way, the access restrictions on images are maintained. If you copied an image only accessible at FHCs and placed it on this forum, anyone can see it and FS could be in serious legal trouble if the record custodian finds out.
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I am not FS Staff - I am an 'ordinary' user - with 'genthusiasm'.
To clarify from other conversation DGS 102779713 is the only item on film: 1896777 Items 3-7 that I can view film images of: Taufen 1668-1673 Heiraten 1668-1675 Taufen 1620-1669 Heiraten 1642-1669 Taufen 1674-1690 Heiraten 1674-1690 Taufen 1691-1745 Heiraten 1691-1699, 1703-1745
and of course there is no index.
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So you cannot view Items 1-2- which are the Lutheran records?. That would be odd, considering it was repeated several times in that discussion that you always get taken to Item 1 when you click on a camera icon.
But if this is what is happening with this film, it means that there's no reason to deny access to non-members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The restriction could be changed to align with films 909698 through 909700. And that would mean that everyone at a FHC or Affiliate Library could view the film.
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@A van Helsdingen Good point - I don't know that it wasn't those records. What are you seeing when accessing items 1-2?
Comparing both Catalog links I see the same images for the roll (as expected from the previous discussion today) - so I don't know in particular because I don't know the records exactly (don't read German - but it appears like Latinized names) - if there is anything but items 1-2 from the roll.
Film: 1896777 DGS: Items 1-2 102779713 vs. Film: 1896777 Items 3-7 DGS: 102779713
results in seeing the exact same film roll - which likely means the Lutheran records.
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Catholic records were generally written in Latin in a script that is relatively easy for modern genealogists to read.
Lutheran records would have never used Latin. German at the time was written in a script that is incredibly difficult to read.
Are there not images similiar to image 3 of film 1392647 (the Milwaukee Lutheran records that were previously discussed) that state the Item numbers?
When I try to access either Items 1-2 or Items 3-7 of film 1896777, I get the message about going to a partner site or record custodian- which as I mentioned earlier means the records are only accessible to Latter Day Saints. But for Items 1-2 I am taken to image 3 of 1309, and for Items 3-7 image 195 of 1309. So based on the information accessible to me, it seems that images 3-194 are Items 1-2- the Lutheran records.
Thank you very much for looking into the situation for me. It is so frustrating because on Matricula, there are freely accessible images of most of the Catholic records for Rheinberg. But for the time period I'm interested in, the records are in a government archive rather than at the church's archive, and for that reason was not digitised by Matricula. I find it somewhat absurd that Latter Day Saints can access these records on FS, but Catholics like myself cannot. Especially given that the Catholic Church has requested that its property not be used for facilitating Latter Day Saint ordinances!
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@A van Helsdingen Then you are seeing exactly what I am seeing: "for Items 1-2 I am taken to image 3 of 1309, and for Items 3-7 image 195 of 1309. So based on the information accessible to me, it seems that images 3-194 are Items 1-2- the Lutheran records."
Interesting that the 'waypoints' or whatever are taking you to the appropriate location on this film and not the film from earlier today. I guess that one hasn't been 'waypointed'.
If you have further questions on this - I guess it would be best to direct them to a moderator - but from that last bit - it appears we are seeing the same thing.
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Thanks for confirming that we are seeing the same thing. So unfortunately, since the same access restriction must apply to the entire film, the film will have to remain viewable only to Latter Day Saints at FHCs and Affiliate Libraries. Hopefully one day the archive that currently holds the records will relent and allow their digitization on Matricula so that everyone regardless of their location or religion can access them.
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@A van Helsdingen I agree - there shouldn't be a religious restriction for access to records. In this case I think the restriction is contractual rather than religious - or I hope so. I think this is the case in the United States - but I don't know about other countries. Also - it's not just members of The Church of Jesus Christ who can view these at FHCs and ALs - anyone in the public who goes to these has the same access. Since you obviously would like to do so - have you tried a local FHC or AL?
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I know from personal experience that German Lutheran records cannot be viewed by non-LDS at Affiliate Libraries. I haven't tried this film (and won't be able to for at least a fortnight due to anti-covid restrictions in New Zealand), but I am 99% sure I won't be able to. If I was able to view the film there, I should have seen a message telling me to visit a FHC or AL when I clicked on the camera/key icon in the catalog.
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@A van Helsdingen I cannot comment on access from New Zealand. I am sorry access is not easier to you.
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The current discussion has nothing to do with the original question. Please take it somewhere else. My e-mail is filled with messages about your answers which are not for my question. These discussion should be closed!☹️
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@karenannjohnson2 , you can turn off email notifications. Go to "Notification Preferences" in your profile. It is normal for discussions on this forum to cover a range of different but related topics.
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