Need advice on where to look next?
Hi:
I've got German and Czech ancestors.
I have a brick wall with my Krulish line.
My immediate problem: to solve it I need to research Czech records. I can handle that!
To do that I need to know their hometown. Problem is all US records state Bohemia as the birthplace. That is as helpful as a wheel on a crutch. Sigh!
I have death certificates, census records, ship manifest, cemetery records. Can't find a naturalization record. He may not be naturalized. Ditto for his wife.
They both were born in Bohemia. And married there. There may have been a first marriage with three children aka the subject of my brick wall. Their US records say (you guessed it) Bohemia.
Everything on Ancestry or Family Search is equally evasive. I've had my DNA done. The other researchers and DNA cousins aren't collecting records just names.
Where else can I look? Or should I go archive by archive and hope I get lucky.
Thank you for your help!
Martha
Comentarios
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Hi
I found a note my mom made. It had Kutna Hora on it.
I don't know how accurate it is. I would love to ask her, but we buried her last week.
I'll try that out.
Thanks!
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I am sorry this was not answered. I am not being notified in my emails. Have you made any progress in this. I would love to help you.
Betseylee
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Detail View: Gazetteer of Austrian, Czech, Slovak and Slovenian Republic
No.3568Place Name:Hora KutnaFormer Place Name:KuttenbergPlace Name German:Place Name Hungarian:Place Name Slovak:Place Name Ukrainian:Judicial District:Hora KutnaCrown Land:Böhmen NameBegin of Vital StatisticsRespective ArchivesCompetent Parish - Roman Catholic:Kutna Hora1660/1672/1672Prag
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@Martha Murray Do you have an online database I can look at?
Betseylee
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Hi Betseylee:
Have I got a story for you!
Frank Albert Krulish (my 2nd great grandpa) was in his grave (Linden Hill Cemetery, Ridgeway New York). They dug him up and relocated him to the Makarius Krulish plot (same cemetery). This was done after his wife Annie remarried.
Here’s what I know: it’s a huge plot and I have a diagram detailing where the people are buried.
Here is the connection: Marie Krulish married Charles Makarius.
Marie’s parents were Frank Krulish & Katharina Sochurek of Kutna Hora, Central Bohemia, Czech Republic
They had the following children:
Anna born: 15 Dec 1864 baptized:17 Dec 1864
Karolina born: 27 Jan 1866 baptized: 28 Jan 1866 died: 31 Jan1866
Frantisek born: 26 Aug 1867 baptized: 27 Aug 1867 died: 4 Feb 1877
Marie Katerina born: 11 Apr 1869 baptized: 13 Apr 1869
Aloise born: 21 May 1872 baptized: 23 May 1872
Antonin born: 22 May 1874 baptized: 25 May 1874 died: 22 Jul 1874
Meanwhile Frank Krulish married Annie Dusatko on 10 May 1875 in Kutna Hora
Then on 19 May 1877 they arrived in New York, New York
Frank Krulish & Annie (Dusatko) Krulish
And several lines down:
Katharina Krulish and her three surviving children: Anna, Maria & Aloise.
I managed to find birth/baptism records for all the children and Frank & Annie’s marriage record.
According to the marriage record, Frank was 26.
That isn’t right. I browsed thru 1840-1851. Couldn’t find his birth record.
Goal: to find proof they are the same person.
Advice???
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Good job. I would like to see the sources, please. Do you have the sources online anywhere? The marriage is usually held in the parish of the bride. Do these records have indexes? I need more birth dates for your 2nd great grandpa Franz Albert and for Franz Krulish and Katharina Socharek. Could they have been Jewish?
Detail View: Gazetteer of Austrian, Czech, Slovak and Slovenian Republic
No.3568Place Name:Hora Kutna
Former Place Name:Kuttenberg
Judicial District:Hora Kutna
Crown Land:Böhmen
NameBegin of Vital StatisticsRespective ArchivesCompetent Parish - Roman Catholic:Kutna Hora1660/1672/1672Prag
This Francis Charles Krulish FamilySearch ID LVZS-FXK donated his money to a Jewish Family Service, when he died. Jewish records are in a different place.
Betseylee
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Hi
I've a tree on Ancestry... Krulish Mystery.
Genealogy, Family Trees and Family History Records online - Ancestry.com
I just threw it together and I'm in the process of adding records. Usually, my trees are well documented.
I can't find birth dates for Franz Albert or for Franz Krulish and Katharina Socharek.
Could they have been Jewish? I doubt it. On the Czech records they are listed as Catholic. The current religion is Presbyterian.
Interesting fact: Frank & Annie had 4 children in US. Frank & Katharina also had several children here.
Either Frank is a cad... on a cigar maker salary or he has an uncle or cousin living a parallel life to his.
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I spent a great deal of time in the records searching for your ancestor too. I did not have success. The parish is crawling with Krulish/Krulisch people. I really need to see the marriage and the children's records to advise further. Could you tell me what digital images they are on and save me a lot of time? I would also love to see the marriage record. I would like to see these before giving advice.
Betseylee Browning
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Can you invite me as a guest to your tree so I can find it easier, please? It will send me an email directing me to the site.
Betseylee
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I cannot find your tree.
Betseylee
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Hi Betseylee
I re-sent the link.
My mom was a compulsive note taker. I have tons of scraps of paper without any rhyme or reason to her thoughts. Every inch of the paper filled ... genealogy, children, church, crafts, groups & to-do lists. Nothing dividing one from the other.
Digging thru them, I ran across Vilémovice (Červené Janovice). It's what we would call a suburb of Kutná Hora. Like Layton & Clearfield are suburbs of SLC.
So maybe the reason we didn't find them is we were looking in the wrong place. We were doing too broad a search. So, I'm browsing through Červené Janovice looking for Frank or Katharina. (I wish they had a search option not just browse only).
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They will have this indexed someday. They are working on it. I will look at this more in the morning.
Betseylee
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I would also look at the first records that we were looking at and see if you can find any Godparents named Krulish from another town. I would also look at the marriage witnesses. I still cannot access your Ancestry Tree. Please send me a link or an invitation as a guest.
Betseylee
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Hi Betseylee
Sigh!
Since I don't have your email address, I sent the invite through Ancestry using your username.
My email is: marthajer2911@yahoo.com
I re-invited you. Ancestry's motto is ... how hard can we make it. Sigh And for this I pay good money.
Krulish Mystery is a public tree.
I was thinking... I have Frank & (his second wife?) Annie's marriage and several of Katharina & Frank's children's baptisms.
Can we translate a baptism and the marriage & compare the two? It might have enough information to tell us if he is one person.
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Hi Betseylee:
The top record is Annie & Frank's marriage... his portion. His parents are Frank & Marie
On Antonin & Aloise baptism, it appears to say his parents are Frank & Apoleny.
I'm guessing at that because I can't read the Czech.
Which means that they aren't the same person but are related.
Does it mention a surname for Maria?
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They appear to be different people. Frank is not used in Czechia. Frantisek son of Frantiska. They say this because of the genitive case. The name would be Frantisek son of Frantisek. The words are in German. Marie daughter of Jana Fryzy. They do not appear to be the same couple. But there might be the case of a 2nd marriage.
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Are these two records from the same parish? The places are not spelled the same.
Betseylee
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Hi Betseylee:
Both are from Kutna Hora. Antonin on 25 May 1874 and Annie Dusatko & Frank Krulish on 10 May 1875.
https://ebadatelna.soapraha.cz/pages/SearchMatrikaPage/puvodceId/1014?16 (State Regional Archives in Prague KH 19 p 435)
https://ebadatelna.soapraha.cz/pages/SearchMatrikaPage/puvodceId/1014?16 (State Regional Archives in Prague KH 39 p 327)
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The key is the town where Frantisek is from in the marriage. I am checking into it. I have not found it yet.
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I looked through births and marriages and found the Krulish name A LOT, but couldn't make connections.
Detail View: Gazetteer of Austrian, Czech, Slovak and Slovenian Republic
No.9044Place Name:OvcaryFormer Place Name:OacarPlace Name German:Place Name Hungarian:Place Name Slovak:Place Name Ukrainian:Judicial District:Hora KutnaCrown Land:Böhmen NameBegin of Vital StatisticsRespective ArchivesCompetent Parish - Roman Catholic:Nove Dvory1784/1784/1784PragFormer Parish - Roman CatholicCirkvice1679/1658/1679Prag
https://ebadatelna.soapraha.cz/d/4599/20 This is where I looked.
Betseylee
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I asked some experts about this town. There are five possibilities. This town is crawling them. I will check some other towns today.
Francisek's wife Marie Fryzy is from Pečky.
Detail View: Gazetteer of Austrian, Czech, Slovak and Slovenian Republic
No.9226Place Name:PeckyFormer Place Name:PetschekPlace Name German:Place Name Hungarian:Place Name Slovak:Place Name Ukrainian:Judicial District:PodboranyCrown Land:Böhmen NameBegin of Vital StatisticsRespective ArchivesCompetent Parish - Roman Catholic:Pecky1831/1847/1866PragFormer Parish - Roman CatholicDobrichov1661/1661/1661Prag
Betseylee
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Hi Betseylee:
We need to create a tree for Frantisek and his wife Marie Fryzy. Do some descendancy research. Family Search & Ancestry are useless when it comes to Czech records.
I love German records as they give you at least the parents and sometimes the grandparents. And if illegitimate their history until their parents married.
Germans had house censuses... who lived and died in that house. It was noted if they married or moved away. Does Czechia have such a record? Or maybe census records. They would help me create the descendancy tree.
I have I told lately what a gem you are!
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Thanks for your appreciation.
Thanks for appreciating my efforts. FamilySearch does have some Czech records from one of the archives. I have spent the last few days looking. I came up with two possibilities. I have not located which christening records they are referring to. Maybe you can have a try. https://ebadatelna.soapraha.cz/d/10811/48 on image 48 and 47. I am thinking it is Grandfather Franz, but it could be the father of Franz too. It is contained in one of these records: https://ebadatelna.soapraha.cz/pages/SearchMatrikaPage/puvodceId/1075?16. Keep track of where you have checked, please.
Betseylee
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I figured out the first index record is a death record reference and the second one is a birth record. I am asking Czech Genealogy Facebook for help to figure out the birth record first.
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You won't believe this. I found Franz. I will work on the translation. I am experiencing shoulder pain and took a muscle relaxer so I don't know if I will do it tonight. https://ebadatelna.soapraha.cz/d/10794/58?fbclid=IwAR2v3NSRXzNbEqNJaQaZJrHwMuev8b2ozIUL6qC9IwRXT5-QAnJf7btgjDc
Betseylee
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It differs from the marriage certificate in one respect. It states that the grandfather is Frantisek whereas the christening states Joseph. The year, place, mother, and her father is all right.
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I found the death and it says Frantisek died in 1850, so maybe this is not the right one. Both the christening and death are house 8. https://ebadatelna.soapraha.cz/d/10808/30. I am going to think about this problem overnight. Maybe they named another child after his child? Or the marriage is the wrong marriage?
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Hi Betseylee
WOW That will really help our research.
Southerners and Germans switch names all the time. The older person will go by the first name and his son will go by his middle name. When the dad dies, he might switch to the first name. So, he could be Frantisek Joseph.
This can wait. Not like any of the players are going anywhere.
Go relax and take care of yourself.
I know pain... migraines, neck, shoulder and back pain. I was in a car accident broke my neck + I have a curved spine front to back. I understand what you are going through.
Thank you!!!!!!
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Don't think this is the right one because after I found the christening, I found the death at age one. I am going to go through the parish again. I think they might have had two children named Frantisek.
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Hi Betseylee:
I hope you are feeling better.
If this child was born in 49 and died in 50, then our Frantisek was born after that. Usually, the mother got pregnant right away and had a baby the next year.
Frank and Annie started having child in 77. But Frank & Katharina started in 64.
So that means they're not the same people.
Both couples had children after coming to the USA. Yet only Frank Albert is buried in the Makarius/Krulish family plot. So, what happened to the other Frank.
Katharina stayed in the same area. She is buried at Linden Hill Cemetery (she is listed as Cady).
That's the trouble with genealogy ... always another question.
In 1910 Katharina is living with Charles & Mary Makarius. She has had 13 children but only 4 survived. I'm missing some but I know Barbara was born in 1883. I can't find their 1892 or 1900 census. By 1905 her husband Frank was out of the picture, and she is listed as head of the household.
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