HELP NEEDED: Looking for 1802 London Baptism for John CLARKE (Parents: Thomas & Mary?) - Later an Or
HELP NEEDED: Looking for 1802 London Baptism for John CLARKE (Parents: Thomas & Mary?) - Later an Orphan
Hello everyone,
I am trying to break through a brick wall regarding my ancestor John CLARKE (born c.1802 on Lower Thames Street, London). I do not have a paid Ancestry or Findmypast subscription, so I am hoping someone with access to unindexed or broader London parish films can help.
According to a local obituary from his later life in Staffordshire/Worcestershire, John Clarke died in 1878 aged 76, which suggests his birth is around 1802.
The obituary explicitly states that he grew up on Lower Thames Street (the home of Billingsgate Fish Market), became an orphan as a "little boy," was placed into a London Workhouse, and was subsequently transferred to the Birmingham Workhouse via a Poor Law Removal Pass. He later ran away from the Birmingham Workhouse to become a fish salesman in Lower Gornal.
Given his 1802 birth and a childhood orphan crisis, the leading parental match is a Thomas and Mary CLARKE. Thomas died in London on 17 January 1813, and Mary died on 31 July 1814. This would have left young John completely orphaned at age 11–12, matching the timeline of a child being old enough to remember his street name but young enough to be taken into a workhouse and passed to the Midlands.
Could anyone help me look for a baptism record for a John CLARKE/CLARK born 1801–1803 to parents Thomas and Mary? Due to the Lower Thames Street location, the most likely parishes are St. Mary at Hill, St. Magnus the Martyr, St. Dunstan in the East, or St. Botolph Billingsgate.
Any advice on surviving Settlement Examinations or Removal Orders for London to Birmingham (c.1813–1815) involving a child named John Clarke would also be immensely appreciated!
Thank you so much.
(name removed for privacy)
Answers
-
Good morning @Caroline76797
We have a group for England Research where you will find experienced members who are knowledgeable about what record collections are available.https://community.familysearch.org/en/group/45-england-research
Best of luck!
1 -
Regarding the earlier part of his life, I would get in touch with the London Archives to see if any of their holdings might be of help. Contact details at:
Contact us | The London Archives
All I could find on him was the 1878 death, to which you presumably refer:
John Clarke, 76, Mar 1878 Qtr Dudley Reg. Dist.
It's rather unusual not to find any census records that are a close match - have you discovered any youself?
Also, what about further details concerning the obituary: was it taken from a newspaper and was there any indication of who might have written it? Any widow or children named, etc.?
It would certainly help to know how you have worked out he is your ancestor - presumably through your descent through one of his children?
Please tell us as much as you can, otherwise this could be a needle in a haystack situation.
3 -
@Caroline76797 - if the bit "subsequently transferred to the Birmingham Workhouse via a Poor Law Removal Pass" is something like accurate, then this would, at first glance, imply a Birmingham connection. The usual reason for removal is that the sending Workhouse believes that they can wash their hands of the people in question because their official place of settlement is Birmingham (in this instance). That would suggest his father's place of settlement was the Birmingham area and that he'd never gained settlement in the London area.
Given how old John was when his parents died, and that he'd been born in London, I'm surprised that the father hadn't gained settlement in London in that time. So maybe there's another reason for the removal, such as Birmingham wanting cheap labour for the factories - I'm fairly certain I've read of children ending up in Northern mills far from their place of birth. But, I don't know enough about the Poor Law of this time to pass any sensible comment on these possibilities.
2 -
Hi both
Thanks for replying. He's on censuses post 1841 and I've located his marriage in 1828 but anything of his London connections I draw a blank. I've attached the obituary from a local newspaper and traced him through censuses and baptism records. He's my GGG grandfather. His ID on FS is 99PT-5BC if that helps.
I'd not considered his transfer to Birmingham being motivated by cheap labour. It really was brutal back then.
Hoping the further information and attachment helps ?
Thank you.
2 -
@Caroline76797 - the Wikipedia article on Quarry Bank Mill at Styal describes how the mill took in apprentices from workhouses. I guess that this is probably what I'm thinking of.
However, this still doesn't fit your John Clarke because Styal was transfers from workhouse to an apprenticeship, whereas John, at face value is transferred from one workhouse to another. I still think that the usual reason for such a transfer would be because John's legal place of settlement was Birmingham. Yet the passage of time puzzles me. If there is nothing in the London Poor Law records, then I feel that we are missing something about why Birmingham. NB Birmingham Poor Law records need to be checked as well.
Thinking about it, I wonder if the passage of time has meant that the story got twisted a bit - maybe Birmingham wasn't another workhouse but an apprenticeship in Birmingham, similar to Styal? My gut feeling is that is more plausible - but really doesn't help you either way.
2 -
Thanks, Adrian. Gives me something to cogitate over.
Joseph Hughes remained in his life throughout - John's daughter is living with him in the 1851 census so I think his 'adoption' of John was as much emotional as it was for work purposes. I wonder why John didn't try his family from Birmingham though - he seemed to be a resourceful young man. Unless there weren't any ... Such a puzzle.
Caroline
1 -
@Caroline76797 I see that you have posted your question again in the England Research Group. You have already received a lot of great information here in this thread. More discussion about this question should now be directed to the new thread in the England Research Group. Here is the link.
This discussion will now be closed.
0
