Bizarre values in UK 1861 census database

Re Searching · July 22

See the last four results from the following search

https://www.familysearch.org/en/search/record/results?count=20&q.birthLikeDate.from=1841&q.birthLikeDate.to=1841&q.filmNumber=101817703&q.givenName=Julia

It seems that there has been a hiccup in the import process or in the transfer between entities.

Áine.ní.Donnghaile · July 22

Looking at the image on FindMyPast.com for the first item, those exact words are on the census page. The enumeration is of a National School.

The second one also has those exact words.

The third one, too, has those words. And, the fourth.

I agree that descriptions should not be in the name field, of course.

Adrian Bruce1 · July 22

How fascinating, @Re Searching !

It appears to me that the fault lies with the original enumerator who seems, in the case of the North Staffordshire Railway Goods Warehouse (say) to have listed the building even though, based on the data, there was no-one in the warehouse on the night of the enumeration. Ditto John Higginbottom's Office. John H is surely not there, it just happens to be his office building, which was empty on the night.

So far as I can see, such addresses should be marked with "U" for uninhabited - indeed there are several such addresses on the same page as those two that have been marked with a "U". Perhaps the enumerator was unduly anxious to convey how many people worked there, which is the only reason to write anything down that I can see.

Since the issue is with the original document, I have no idea whether FindMyPast (who supplied this stuff to FS) will do anything.

Áine.ní.Donnghaile · July 22

I tried searching with those specific terms on FMP without success. IOW, it's unclear to me where the error may have crept in.

maryellenstevensbarnes1 · July 23

@Re Searching If you are looking for a specific person on that UK 1861 Census page, Family Search Support Help phone number 866-466-1830 open 8am - 8pm mountain time on Thurs July 23 may be able to assist - or try them next week Mon thru Fri

Adrian Bruce1 · July 23

@Áine.ní.Donnghaile said:

"I tried searching with those specific terms on FMP without success. IOW, it's unclear to me where the error may have crept in."

Interesting. I think I tried one such search, failed, but thought nothing more of it since I could get to the FMP image from FS. It sort of roughly, vaguely, perhaps, maybe sounds like the odd text is in one item on FMP that is not being indexed as a name on FMP, but has been copied over into the Name item on loading into FS.

Alternatively, I see from the FMP image that the whole "John Higgenbottom Office…" line-entry is present as a label for a transcript on FMP (just like a "proper" name would be) but when I select that line-entry I get a page reading "Nobody lived in this house in 1861" - so maybe it is in a Name item but maybe there's also another marker to tell FMP "this isn't real".

Someone would need to investigate this at the load stage.

sc woz · July 23

@Re Searching

Thank you for taking the time to share your concerns about the indexing. We understand how frustrating it can be when information in an index does not match what you believe to be correct.

In some cases, what appears to be an indexing error is actually information that was recorded incorrectly by the original enumerator or record creator. FamilySearch indexers are instructed to index the record as it appears on the document, even when the information may seem incorrect by modern standards or when supporting evidence suggests otherwise. FamilySearch's indexing guidelines state:"Type the information as it appears in the document." [broadcast.lds.org], [1: Indexin...st.lds.org]

You may find the FamilySearch indexing instructions and guidelines helpful here:

FamilySearch Indexing Information:
Help Preserve History with FamilySearch Indexing [familysearch.org]

If you have documentation that supports a different name, date, place, or other detail, we encourage you to use the available options to suggest corrections or make updates where permitted. Well-documented corrections can help improve the overall quality of FamilySearch records and assist other researchers who may encounter the same issue.

Thank you again for your efforts to improve the accuracy of FamilySearch records and for helping preserve family history for everyone. Your careful research and supporting documentation are always appreciated.

Áine.ní.Donnghaile · July 23

According to the Collection Landing Page, the data for the England and Wales, Census, 1861, comes from FindMyPast. There is nothing we, as users, can edit on FamilySearch
https://www.familysearch.org/en/search/collection/1493747

It is also not possible to submit a correction on FindMyPast because those entries are correctly identified as "nobody lived in this house in 1861."

Adrian Bruce1 · July 23

@sc woz - yes, except that those are the rules for indexing by FamilySearch. This census has been indexed by FindMyPast and their index file(s) have been supplied to FS. The FMP index and search processing clearly recognise that these odd names are not people.

If FMP can recognise this, why can't FS? Both are working from the same index.

Now, it could be that the relevant data isn't being sent over from FMP. It could be that it is being sent over and isn't being used. That's why I advocate investigations into the FS Load process. It's perfectly possible that FS can't do any better but we'll never know without the investigation

MandyShaw1 · July 23

I'll pull the underlying data tomorrow so we can see if that helps us understand what's going on.

Re Searching · July 25

Thanks to all for your comments. My immediate presumption was wrong, since it has been made clear by the above that there is no fault with import or transfer.

maryellenstevensbarnes1 · July 26

@sc woz After reviewing each of the links you provided, my comments are in italics (I'm only another user not an expert): You said, FamilySearch's indexing guidelines state:"Type the information as it appears in the document." [broadcast.lds.org], [1: Indexin...st.lds.org] both these links give excellent instructions for Web Indexing done 2012-2020 which FS retired and chose a combination of AI and human review/corrections for good reasons (I have no argument with FS!)

You said, You may find the FamilySearch indexing instructions and guidelines helpful here: FamilySearch Indexing Information: Help Preserve History with FamilySearch Indexing [familysearch.org] This link sent me to Get Involved Activities designed mainly to provide human review for how AI reads millions of documents, regardless of document quality & condition, and regardless of the legibility of either cursive or typewritten words, names and individual letters of the alphabet.

To my understanding/opinion, well-researched and documented Family History/Genealogy is not the same thing as Get Involved. Get Involved is a positive/friendly introduction to Genealogy and Family History. Get Involved is a small part of the Indexing process and these how-to instructions should reflect the entire picture.

Have a great day, Mary😎

MandyShaw1 · July 26

Here's the 'principal' ('PR_') metadata for the 7 personas (apologies for the delay).

Note that the _ORIG values can be expected to be what FMP has sent.

persona	title	metadata
M74Z-77T	Julia Mottart, 'England and Wales, Census, 1861'	PR_AGE : P20Y,PR_AGE : 20 years,PR_AGE_ORIG : 20, PR_BIR_COUNTY_ORIG : Staffordshire,PR_BIR_PLACE_ORIG : Fenton, Staffordshire, PR_BIR_TOWN_ORIG : Fenton, PR_BIR_YEAR_EST : +1841,PR_BIR_YEAR_EST : 1841, PR_MARITAL_STATUS : Married,PR_MARITAL_STATUS_ORIG : MARRIED, PR_NAME : Julia Mottart,PR_NAME_ORIG : Julia Mottart, PR_NAME_GN : Julia,PR_NAME_GN_ORIG : Julia, PR_NAME_SURN : Mottart,PR_NAME_SURN_ORIG : Mottart, PR_RELATIONSHIP_TO_HEAD_ORIG : Daughter, PR_RES_PLACE_ORIG : Duke Street, PR_SEX_CODE : Female,PR_SEX_CODE_ORIG : F
M74Z-7PK	Ann J Malkin, 'England and Wales, Census, 1861'	PR_AGE : P20Y,PR_AGE : 20,PR_AGE_ORIG : 20, PR_BIR_COUNTY_ORIG : Staffordshire,PR_BIR_PLACE_ORIG : Stoke On Trent, Staffordshire, PR_BIR_TOWN_ORIG : Stoke On Trent, PR_BIR_YEAR_EST : +1841,PR_BIR_YEAR_EST : 1841, PR_MARITAL_STATUS : Single,PR_MARITAL_STATUS_ORIG : UNMARRIED, PR_NAME : Ann J Malkin,PR_NAME_ORIG : Ann J Malkin, PR_NAME_GN : Ann J,PR_NAME_GN_ORIG : Ann, PR_NAME_SURN : Malkin,PR_NAME_SURN_ORIG : Malkin, PR_OCCUPATION_ORIG : Dressmaker, PR_RELATIONSHIP_TO_HEAD_ORIG : Daughter, PR_RES_PLACE_ORIG : Duke Street, PR_SEX_CODE : Female,PR_SEX_CODE_ORIG : F
M74Z-8BN	Heathcote, 'England and Wales, Census, 1861'	PR_AGE : P20Y,PR_AGE : 20 years,PR_AGE_ORIG : 20, PR_BIR_COUNTY_ORIG : Staffordshire,PR_BIR_PLACE_ORIG : Leek, Staffordshire,PR_BIR_TOWN_ORIG : Leek, PR_BIR_YEAR_EST : +1841,PR_BIR_YEAR_EST : 1841, PR_MARITAL_STATUS : Married,PR_MARITAL_STATUS_ORIG : MARRIED, PR_NAME : Heathcote,PR_NAME_ORIG : Heathcote, PR_NAME_SURN : Heathcote,PR_NAME_SURN_ORIG : Heathcote, PR_RELATIONSHIP_TO_HEAD_ORIG : Wife, PR_RES_PLACE_ORIG : Marshall Street, PR_SEX_CODE : Female,PR_SEX_CODE_ORIG : F
M74Z-D8S	Divine Service Performed In Connection With In ###, 'England and Wales, Census, 1861'	PR_NAME : Divine Service Performed In Connection With In ###, PR_NAME_ORIG : Divine Service Performed In Connection With In ###, PR_NAME_SURN : Divine Service Performed In Connection With In ###, PR_NAME_SURN_ORIG : Divine Service Performed In Connection With In ###, PR_RES_PLACE_ORIG : Bridge Street
M74Z-Q43	Family Return..., 'England and Wales, Census, 1861'	PR_NAME : Family Return..., PR_NAME_ORIG : Family Return..., PR_NAME_SURN : Family Return..., PR_NAME_SURN_ORIG : Family Return..., PR_RES_PLACE_ORIG : Foley Cottages
M74Z-QHF	John Higgenbottom Office Employing 3 Clerk Surv###, 'England and Wales, Census, 1861'	PR_NAME : John Higgenbottom Office Employing 3 Clerk Surv###, PR_NAME_ORIG : John Higgenbottom Office Employing 3 Clerk Surv###, PR_NAME_SURN : John Higgenbottom Office Employing 3 Clerk Surv###, PR_NAME_SURN_ORIG : John Higgenbottom Office Employing 3 Clerk Surv###, PR_RES_PLACE_ORIG : Foley Place
M74Z-QHW	North Staffordshire Railway Good Warehouse Empl###, 'England and Wales, Census, 1861'	PR_NAME : North Staffordshire Railway Good Warehouse Empl###, PR_NAME_ORIG : North Staffordshire Railway Good Warehouse Empl###, PR_NAME_SURN : North Staffordshire Railway Good Warehouse Empl###, PR_NAME_SURN_ORIG : North Staffordshire Railway Good Warehouse Empl###, PR_RES_PLACE_ORIG : Foley Cottages

Here's the 7 Foley Cottages enumeration:

So FMP do appear to be simply treating this data as surnames, despite the lack of Age, Relationship to Head, etc. Given the _ORIG values, I do not think this is a problem at the FS end.

Áine.ní.Donnghaile · July 26

@MandyShaw1 From my observations on the FindMyPast site, browsing for those specific pages using Folio and Piece, FMP is not treating those phrases as names. In fact, each one has the banner "nobody lived in this house in 1861."

MandyShaw1 · July 26

Hmm, maybe they are getting it right in the main user interface, but wrong when building their export data set. This stuff is definitely arriving at FS labelled as 'surname', it seems to me.

Adrian Bruce1 · July 26

My best guess @Áine.ní.Donnghaile and @MandyShaw1 is that for FMP, the key lies in the two columns immediately before the Name & Surname.

If there is something (anything?) in the Houses Uninhabited column, then it follows that the schedule(?) household(?) is for an uninhabited building and so FMP puts up "Nobody lived…"

If there is a number (is it only 1 or?) in the Houses Inhabited column, then it follows that the schedule(?) household(?) is for an inhabited building and so FMP treats the names as people.

If there is nothing in the Houses Inhabited column, then it follows that the schedule(?) household(?) is for an uninhabited building and so FMP puts up "Nobody lived…". This option appears to be employed for the Warehouse, School, Office, etc.

There's a mess of unanswered questions there about other possible values in those columns.

The Houses (Un)Inhabited columns appear to be for the level "above" individual. Schedule? Household?

Bizarre values in UK 1861 census database

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