I need help searching records for ancestors in Amserdam, Netherlands in 1600's...
Answers
-
Yes, there are church records for Emden in the 17th century, IF they were reformed. See this link:
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/501406?availability=Family%20History%20Library
0 -
Pieter Diercks was a German-born Amsterdam baker. Another history says "a baker from the free city of Emden." Are there birth records for this time period? Would Pieter then be the son of Tjerck?
Yes, he would. the -s ending is a common patronym in this area, in addition to -sen, -zoon, or -se. Extremely common. At this early time period, the patronymic system is still in use in this area.
0 -
Thank you for your reply. I'm not sure if "new German Church or Great Church Emden" means they were "reformed"? In the link you shared, it says "Heiraten 1587-1619." What is "Heiraten?" Pieter Tjerck was b. abt 1601 Emden and his father, Tjerck Jansz b. abt 1575 in Emden. If this is the correct film, for the correct Church, it would hopefully contain the records I need. I am not sure when any Library will open up to view the film though. Do you have access to this German film? Thank you for your help.
0 -
This is for a reformed church in Emden:
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/501406?availability=Family%20History%20Library
Heiraten means 'marriages'.
It looks like the earliest records in this collection are marriages. The baptisms start only in 1623. Darn!
IF you log in with your FamilySearch account, are you able to see the records?
0 -
Thank you for your reply. Yes, I did log into my FamilySearch account & saw the records, but I cannot completely read them. Did you get my other post from June 14th? I would appreciate your help in translating the two records. I have noted the image #. Thank you very much.
0 -
@CFitzgarrald CFitzgarrald, I don't see a post from June 14 on your profile page; was it a comment on a post? If not, you may need to repost.
0 -
I had originally posed my question to Fritz Juengling or thought I was on June 14th ....CFitzgarrald
I have a source for a marriage from this source https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS85-C9GM-Q?mode=g. The marriage year is 1625 which is images 19 & 20 but I cannot read the names to find Dethmarus Sternberg and Cathrina Morske. Also, there is a source listed with a Christening for 26 Mar 1628 for a son also named Dethmar Sternbergs image 119. I can read the Detmauri Stansbery (not correct spelling I'm sure) but I cannot read the rest. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS85-C95K-2?i=118. This is my husband's 9th & 10th great grandfather's, if it is the same family.
Thank you for your help translating.
www.familysearch.orghttps://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS85-C9GM-Q?mode=g
0 -
Ah, you may have clicked on Fritz's name and sent him a message, rather than posting the question in the Community itself, as the post does not show up on your profile page. For research and translation help, it's always best to create a new post on the Community so that anyone who sees it and has anything to add can do so. It's a great collaborative effort that way.
Images 19 and 20 at the first link are baptismal records (indicated by the word "Getaufte" or "Baptizatorium" at the top of each page, and by the words "Das Kind heisset" in each entry). The 1625 marriage records are on image 110 (linked); the couple's marriage is the 4th listed in the 3rd column (see snippet below), and they were married on 18 [post] Trinit[atis], which in 1625 was 16 October.
0 -
The index of the 26 March 1628 baptism states that it took place in the Reinoldi church, whereas the mariage was in the Marien church.
In the FamilySearch Catalog, if you look at the Dortmund church records, it shows several churches. The Reinoldi church records are linked here, and if you scroll down to the Film/Digital Notes section of the page it shows that the Taufen (baptisms) for 1614-1653 are on FHL microfilm #562299.
Clicking on the microfilm image to the far right of that entry and browsing through the images, you'll find the 26 March 1628 baptism on image 119 (linked). On the right-hand page, the 3rd entry down is the one you're looking for. The entry states that Dethmar Sternberg's child, Dethmar, was baptized on 26 March 1628. The witnesses are then listed: Baltazar Prume, Henrich Murhaus, and Henrich Vogelpothes(?).
0 -
Thank you Charlotte for your reply! Yes, the image 119 is the one I had written Fritz about to get the correct spelling & the names of the witnesses. It looks like Dethmar has an "i" on the end of it - Dethmari, but not so on son, Dethmari. Also, at the end of Sternberg there is a swirl, is it just that, a swirl? I am grateful that you are fluent in German! That is wonderful to know that the father's name indeed was also Dethmar. Thank you so much for your help.
0 -
Oh, is it just an "s" for Sternbergs child?
0 -
Yes, exactly, it is an ending -s; you can learn more about that s (there are multiple s's in the old German script) and other letters by clicking on the first two blue links off to the right of the Germany Community page. These will take you to instructional videos about German paleography.
The father's name is written "Dethmari Sternbergs" in the record. Since the child's name is written without the "-i" the priest added the -i to the father's name as a genitive ending (just like the -s on the surname). The same happens with Christ's name in German; to make his name genitive, it becomes Christi.
0 -
Thank you also for the marriage record. I was not clear on what came first in the film - Baptisms, Marriages, etc. so I was just looking for the year. No wonder I couldn't find them! Thank you for the snippet of the record or I still wouldn't have found them! Please spell out their names - Dethmarus? Sternberg & Cathrina Morski? There are so many different spellings for Dethmar. Is one German and one Latin for the father and the son? I so appreciate being able to put the exact image with the source that was listed on FamilySearch so we can visualize the people and the event and verify the information. I wish the records went back for the father, Dethmar's birth in 1605 perhaps at the same Church of Reinoldi. This is what google had to say about St. Reinold's Church, Dortumund - "The Lutheran Protestant Church of St. Reinold (German: Reinoldikirche) is, according to its foundation date, the oldest extant church in Dortmund, Germany; it is dedicated to Reinold, also known as Renaud de Montauban, the patron of the city. The church was built as a palatine church in the Ottonian era. The present building is a late Romanesque church with a late gothic quire. St. Reinold's was built from 1250 to 1270, and is located in the centre of the city, directly at the crossing of the Hellweg (a historic trade route) and the historic road from Cologne to Bremen. St. Reinoldi's congregation is a member of the Evangelical Church of Westphalia, an umbrella comprising Lutheran, Reformed and united Protestant congregations." Thank you again for your help!
0 -
Thank you Charlotte - how interesting!
0 -
You're very welcome, @CFitzgarrald CFitzgarrald! That is wonderful information about the Reinoldikirche.
In the 1625 marriage record, the husband is listed as Dethmarus Sternberg. The -us on Dethmar's name is the Latin nominative male ending. Without that grammatical marker, his name here is written Dethmar.
The wife is, I think, listed as Cathrina Morsxa. There's a dot above the ending letter in Cathrina's surname, but I think it's a stray mark (there are several on the page) because the letter otherwise looks much more like the "a" at the end of her first name than it does the "i" in the middle of her name. As for the letter after "s" in her surname, I don't think it's a "k" here; there are several instances of "k" on the page, none of which look like this, so I think it more likely to be "x."
As you have noticed, the names are spelled in various ways throughout the records; spelling was not standardized, so the scribe simply wrote what he heard, spelling how he wanted to. Sometimes the endings are due to grammatical markers, such as the Latin -us ending on a name or the German feminine -in ending on a surname.
0 -
Thank you Charlotte, It will be interesting to see how Dethmarus is spelled on his Baptismal records, if we can find them. FamilySearch had Catharina's name as Morska. I couldn't find any similar surnames of Morsxa in any of the Partner Sites. Do u think there is a missing letter after the a & before the period?
On google I found this post for Morskie - Review of Morskie Oko, Krakow, Poland - TripAdvisor
www.tripadvisor.co.nz › ... › Morskie Oko
Morskie Oko: A Polish restaurant for tourists. - See 3133 traveller reviews, 2896 candid photos, and great deals for Krakow, Poland, at Tripadvisor.
Do you think that her name might be that?
Thank you for your help today. You have really helped untangle the questions about this family!
0 -
In Ancestry.com there is a Catharina Morski - wrong husband, but I was searching for anyone with a similar spelling of last name.
0 -
You're welcome! Dethmar's wife's name could easily be spelled Catharina Morska, yes. Since spelling was up to the priest, her name in various records may be written Morsxa, Morscxa, Morstxa, Morska, Morskie, or any variant that sounds very close to that.
Usually the spelling I type into my tree is the way I find the name spelled in the earliest record (i.e., the baptism, if possible), and then I can add the alternate spellings I find as "Alternate Names." You could browse through the church book online to see whether you can find a surname that looks like the same as Dethmar's wife, either as the father in a birth record (in which case the surname is usually underlined in this book) or as a godparent.
I looked through the baptismal records a bit to see whether the mother's surname showed up (in case a brother was living in the same parish and having children around the same time, for example), and I came across a baptism: On 1 Jan 1632 was born and on 11 Jan 1632 was baptized Dethmari [Dethmar] Sternbergii [Sternberg's] child named Dethmarus [Dethmar]. The witnesses were: Berhardt Weleuren(??), Caspar Prume, and Anna Mursaj(?). So perhaps the Dethmar born in 1628 died in infancy. I also came across Catherina's baptism (linked); she was baptized on 1 July 1835.
0 -
Hi Charlotte, Thank you so much for taking the time to answer my queries. I added the various spellings for Catharina Morska just in case we do find another source. I am so happy that you linked me to the Baptism records - I can recognize the names when on the page, but not yet in searching for them. I seem to remember reading somewhere else that they had found another Dethmar & were wondering if he had d. young. In FamilySearch they have both Dethmar's entered but with the same birth year of 1628 & death year of 1678, which is not correct. I need to edit the second one & now put the 1 Jan 1632 that you found. Thank you. On the Church film, how is the record set up - Baptisms first and then are the deaths and marriages next? There are some gaps in the family - they md. 1625 & then Dethmar in 1628, Dethmar in 1632,Catherina in 1635 & Anna Maria abt 1636. I am happy to have found out a little more about this family - thank you!
0 -
Oh, I forgot to ask you - on daughter Catherina's baptismal record, there is also another Catharina at the end of the first witness. What all does that name say? Thank you.
0 -
The priest ran out of space when he was writing this entry (he wrote Dethmar Sternberges Kindt ge[nannt], meaning Dethmar Sternberg's child named), so the Catherina circled in blue below is the child's name; the Catherina circled in purple is the first witness. The two names end up being almost right next to each other.
0 -
You're welcome!
When you go to the FamilySearch Catalog (https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog), type Dortmund into the Place search box, select Germany, Preußen, Westfalen, Dortmund from the drop-down box, click Enter, and click on the Church records heading, it'll show you 14 different collections. The children's baptismal records are in the Reinoldikirche, so you'll want to click on Kirchenbuch, 1614-1937 which is listed as the Reinoldikirche. That'll take you to the Reinoldikirche Catalog page; scroll down to the Film/Digital Notes section and look for the year range you are interested in.
Since Dethmar and Cathrina were married in 1625, the baptisms (Taufen) you'll want to look at are those in the Taufen 1614-1653 collection. Off to the far right of that collection name is a magnifying glass (indicating that some of the images are indexed; in this case, only about 7,000 entries are indexed, including the 1628 and 1635 baptisms in this family) and a camera icon. Clicking on the camera icon will take you to browse the images online. Since there is only one collection listed as being on this microfilm, and since that collection is only labeled baptisms, this microfilm should only contain baptismal records, in chronological order.
The marriage, on the other hand, took place in the Marienkirche (see the linked FamilySearch Catalog entry), and the entry was listed in a collection entitled Taufen, Heiraten, Tote 1614-1779 (i.e., baptisms, marriages, and deaths). Since that microfilm contained multiple record types, that's where the confusion came in.
In mixed records like this, sometimes all the baptisms will be listed first, followed by all the marriages, followed by all the burials; and other times, one year of baptisms will be listed first, followed by the same year of marriages, followed by the same year of burials, and then it'll move on to the next year of baptisms, etc.
I agree about the gaps in the family. It is quite possible there are a couple of children missing; I suggest browsing for children of Dethmar Sternberg in the Taufen 1614-1653 collection first. If there are still gaps after that, you could look at the Taufen, Tote 1629-1713 -- Chronik 801-1506 collection, since there could be children of Dethmar listed there as well; unfortunately, it looks like the death records don't begin until 1664 (they begin on image 459).
0 -
I see the couple listed in a tree on Ancestry at https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/110679124/person/222134572512/facts?_phsrc=TjS364&_phstart=successSource
0 -
Thank you Charlotte! I will try really hard to follow your directions and see if I can find some other children to fill in the gaps. Too bad the death records don't begin until 1664,so there is no way of knowing the date for Dethmar 1628. I appreciate your time and effort to help me. Have a nice day.
0 -
I had not seen this post for Dethmar & Catharina. Clicking on your link in Ancestry, they have Count Dethmar & his father as an Earl Dethmar Sternberg & Mother as Charlotte Brabantina Van Oranje Nassau! Do you think that is true? They do not list any sources for that link, but it is what I had posted yesterday asking if anyone could help prove the link. What do you think?
0 -
Thank you for explaining about the names. That's what I thought had happened that the Priest was squeezing Catherina's name underneath, but I wasn't sure if the other Catharina was her Mother.
0 -
Charlotte, well I really tried to find another child or two starting with 1625 & went to 1640, but to no avail. It is quite difficult to read but I was trying to duplicate the letters from Dethmar in the other records to see if I could find them. I'm just too much of a novice!
0 -
In the second film, Taufen, Tote 1629-1713 -- Chronik 801-1506, the preface says it starts 1650 - 1713. On image 4 - #9 does that say Derhmari Sternberg & I can't read the rest... 1636.
#14 also looks like a "M Dethmarus ____ 1636 wrong last name I'm sure.
0 -
That's right, both #9 and #14 are for people named Dethmarus, with #14 having a different surname.
Entry 9 is a death record (as indicated by the Latin word "obiit" on the line just under his name), and I believe you're right it's for a Dethmarus Sternberg. After his name is written Diaconus [deacon], followed by Reinholdi [Reinoldi], and it looks like he died in the year 1636. There's a word or abbreviation just before "anno 1636" that looks like "schthisi."
All the people on the page are labeled Pastor, Archidiaconus [arch deacon], or Diaconus [deacon], followed by the name of a church (Maria [Marienkirche], Reinold[ikiche], Nicol[aikirche], etc.). Sometimes they're listed both as pastor and deacon, for example, in which case sometimes a year [probably the year they became such] is also listed.
The record (which continues on the next pages) is a list of deceased pastors/deacons of certain churches. They don't seem to be in chronological order though.
0 -
Hi Charlotte, Thank you so much for taking a look at the film! I've been deep into old English since we messaged last, so now I'll have to get reacquainted with Dutch & German! I'm glad that was the obiit for Dethmarus Sternberg, but it poses another question about the family in FamilySearch. For Dethmarcus Sternberg we have the birth record at 1628 with no death date posted. Would he have been a "Deacon" at age 8 though? The next child is Dethmar Sternberg b. 1631-1678 also with a Church record. I thought perhaps that the first Dethmarcus d. early and then the second Dethmar was named the same, but if he died in 1636 they both already had the same name. What do you think is right? Please send me a link to that film, I've lost track of it in all the "threads!" Thank you for your help.
0