I am trying to find the birth location for 2nd great grandfather Nicholas Terry (L1MF-VTG). Name is
I’ve found 8 possible individuals on the luxroots website born in the 1835 timeframe (have eliminated those which had children in Europe). All but 3 of them were born in places that are now considered to be Belgium or Germany. Given that he renounced allegiance to the King of the Netherlands and Duchy of Luxembourg in 1868, can I eliminate the Belgian and German options from further research? The geopolitics of this area was very complicated at that time! Please see naturalization document attached to Nicholas’ profile for more information.
Answers
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Quite the opposite.Given the events of.....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_Revolution
and your statement that "he renounced allegiance to the king of...etc"- i need to suggest to search In Flanders/Wallonie/Belgium specifically.The statement about 'allegiance ' was exactly the cardinal creed of the Flemish/Belgian Movement.Given the name, do not exclude the French part of Belgium.
Also try to keep in mind that we also have a German speaking part of Belgium that was cut away from Germany..We call this side the 'Oostkantons"=>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eupen-Malmedy
Only before 1830 we were all Dutch.
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Should the fact that he was married in the Lutheran Church (in Pennsylvania), to a woman of German background, provide any insight as to where he might have come from? I notice that religion was part of the strife during that time. Thank you for your assistance.
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I'm new her on the forum, Molly , and not an expert.But i'm a Belgian with a Dutch mother.Belgium is French/Dutch /German speaking and is a derivative part from the Netherlands before 1830.
Taking your case in consideration,as a Belgian, my advice would be to make you understand that
'Terry' is very uncommon here, but Thierry, Thiry and Thery are very common names .....,,and furthermore, in the proces of boarding/unboarding, emigrating/immigrating to the new world, names were spelled and interpreted fonetically...For sure, as well on the ships manifests written by the ships masters (Mostly British)as on the immigrations registration office (Ellis) or Earlier ;especially Pensylvanie/orientated;=>
Fonetically.!
So Terry = either Thierry, Thiry, Thery, and rather French speaking part of the lowlands.
I took the liberty to use the terms in the google search bar, along with Pennsylvania and the given dates.
Already the first hitline on google's return is exactly conclusive to find the whole string....
You will see Thierry, Thiry,Thery, Pennsylvania,1848 etc lining up.Together with some ships names and manifests.
So here is what i suggest.If i can find so many variables you provided within the same bracket?....please consider Terry= Thierry.; etc.
Sorry for the typo's and the short answer, but my glasses are broken, and my wrist also.Had an accident some weeks ago.
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Molly, as far as religion goes, it is ALWAYS important to note that with every person. Often, it can point to where a person comes from. In this case, however, probably not. Belgium is a Catholic country (yes, you'll find some protestants here and there, but by and large, it's Catholic). Germans are typically Protestant (lutheran or reformed), but the area of Germany that marches on Belgium is mostly Catholic. As Adrien has pointed out, the name that you are looking for is probably Walloon, which means he was probably Catholic. In your ancestor's case, he probably married in the Lutheran church because he moved to an area with few Catholics and the gal who caught his eye was protestant, and love won out over conviction.
Now, after having said all this, there are always exceptions and quirks, so do not accept what I have written as an absolute rule. You have to have a hypothesis and line of reasoning, but keep other ideas in mind.
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Thanks to you both. From what I can see in the postings, the 1848 ship manifest is a different person, whose family went to Minnesota. I do have genetic connections to people with the Thiry name—which I’ve met through Ancestry—their direct ancestors came to Chicago in the late 1800’s. I will continue reviewing the options, my greatest hope for specificities is in the civil war service records I have requested from the US National Archives.
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Yes, the bracket was an example.It is a high quality idea to keep all options open, not to add complexity or volumes , but to make sure nothing escapes the attention.A good analytical knife
needs training, patience, and resolve.The fun part is not to reach the summit, but the path to it.
Adrie
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I would be more specific and say "between 1815 and 1830 we were all Dutch". From 1795 to 1815 we were French (under Napoleon), before that, we were Austrian, Spanish, Burgundians, etc.
While the revolution of 1830 was primarily about sovereignty, religion was also a significant factor. Belgian Catholics did not want to be governed by Protestant Dutch.
I do not see why someone born in Belgium in 1835 would have to renounce allegiance to the king. So the birth of that individual is more likely in the 1815-1830 time frame.
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I do not agree , Eric. For a number of reasons.First of all,when i state , 'we were all Dutch' before 1830, i assumed that from the peace of Muster , and the borders agreed upon then that roughly created the state Noordelijke en Zuidelijke Nederlanden.I took The Zeeuws-Vlaamse red line in consideration;and i assumed that anyone understands that basically the Noordelijke en Zuidelijke Nederlanden,Willem Van Oranjes reign included, lasted to about 1830. Only after that,and the braking away of Belgium wich altered our Nationality to Belgian,The division from Holland was made, and Zeeuws_Vlaanderen is arguably disputed territory until today.So all Historical components that were derivates from the Munster's peace treaty, especially the borders stayed more or less the same during the last 400 years or so.
The difference after the Belgian revolution is that it chanched the nationality.
Given your argument, in the first sentence,..Austrian,Spanish,Burgundians, etc
We were never Burgundians, Austrians, Spanjards,French, or Germans in WW1 or WW2; these occupations were intrusive , yes,and all foreign, yes, but all shortlived , and they never changed our nationality.
Given the last sentence,..I did not renounce allegiange to the king,Nor did the forum-member, but his ancester did,if memory serves well.
It was a creed of the Flemish/Walloon separatists to renounce the king, it still is today.
It became a saying, a flag, a marker in history, like say Vlaanderen Vlaams!
So given the fact that the forum-member has info about the statement,he is in the correct historical bracket, wich i agreed upon,to be around 1830 to 35 and later.
I did not see a reason to push him out of his mindset/historical bracket.
He was/ is correct.
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I took the same shortcut you did when I said "we were all French, etc." while I should have said "we were all under French rule, etc." Until the revolution, there was no strong sense of national belonging, but more regional belonging. To be totally accurate, we should phrase is as "citizens of province X under the rule of Y". If you insist of a word to describe "citizens of the Low Countries", Netherlandish would be more descriptive.
I did not accuse you or any forum member of renouncing the king (as far as I know, neither of you was born in 1835 ;-) ). I did not understand why someone born on Belgian territory AFTER the independence of Belgium would need to renounce the king in 1868. However, if he was born/resided in disputed territory as you suggest, that would make sense and narrow the geographical area to research.
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Hello, Eric.
The main reason for me to narrow down the geographical area to The 1830-1835 and locate it around Zeeuws-Vlaandern is to keep it bordering the disputed area's maintaining the possibility thet it Was a Flemish nationalist/Walloon nationalist of Dutch origin, given the name.
Mr Juengling made a remark , earlier in the thread,about the division Catholic/Protestants in Belgium or Holland , pointing towards the division that roughly runs alonbg the Zeeuws-Vlaamse red line,indeed , were i was born, Assenede, my mother Westdorpe, the division runs along the borders of the Graafjansdijk generally. Assenede is Catholic,Sas van Gent, next to it , is Protestants.They are neigbours by nature.
The main reason to insist on it, is not to expand the discussion,nor teach history or learn history;..but to use it on this platform
to point something out.
Now it becomes imperative to understand=>does the target person have a presence, in the Dutch, Flemish,or French archives,or
would it be better of to search in the Mercan archives first?...good idea imho ; their records are better than the Belgian ones.
I think you are Flemish , Eric? right, so i will switch to Dutch briefly.
Het is niet mijn bedoeling alle argumentatie eruit te vegen,of eeuwige discussies te beginnen,en ik moet ook niet altijd gelijk halen,dat haalt ook niets uit.Maar onze waarheden , of wat wij verkondigen als waarheid,moet niet alleen waar zijn binnen de geprojecteerde context die wijzelf genereren.Waarheden, historische, moeten eigenlijk waar zijn op en uniforme en unieke manier,niet alleen in zekere zin.....Of het worden filosofische waarheden,morele waarden,en verhaaltjes van bij het slapengaan onder de gele vlag met de adelaar van de keizer.
Dus in deze zin, moet ik persisteren,'wij waren allen Nederlands,va,n ver in de middeleeuwen, tot de Belgische revolutie.'
Ik ben eigenlijk wel tevreden over je inductie,een dialoog vraagt deelnemers,interesse, en inzicht.We leren hier ook onze skills met het keyboard en boren naar bronnen.
groeten, Adrie
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This could be of interest.
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5561421q/texteBrut
Search via control F in the document, hit
Thery, thierry, Terry at the prompt.
Most importantly, hit Nicolas terry at the prompt. follow all branches= branche(fam-name)
Then proceed to follow all decendancy-all branches and time-stamps.
As most of these family's are french today, they were sometimes Belgian/Dutsch/French
because of the locations of the braches familynames.That shows up in the map as
mostly Nord Pas De Calais.This was sometimes French,Dutch/Belgian, and still borders Belgium.
The origin of the name is clear until about 1600(in the document)
Also, Nord Pas De Calais is mentioned in the header, as place of formatting the txt.
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