How to find a date of birth given the date and place of baptism
Answers
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There is no guarantee for that - the birth record and the baptism record may be totally disjoint and usually recorded by differnet orignal entities and the eixstance of one doesnt guarantee the other
BUT of course FS Record searches potentially will gather both - if they exist and are corrently indexed within the FS system. BUt of course FS does not have a monoply or a comprehensive databasde of all humans or birth/baptism records.
so its a lof of searchig and a bit of luck - but there are no guarantees.
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Good morning and very many thanks for responding to my enquiry. Very good of you both.
Can I bore you with a little background. Perhaps then you might have further suggestions?
I have an ancestor named William Greenaway.(Sometimes recorded as Greenway)
From his marriage in 1722 at St Andrews Holborn, London (He married a Mary Edmonds by Licence). I have a copy of the marriage entry from St Andrews Holborn and a copy of the Bishops of London licence sanction.
(Source: Boyd's Index and Guildhall Manuscripts dept.,)
Sanction was given on 26th December 1722.). Mary's parent's were originally from Great Gaddesdon in Hertfordshire and William was born 9th August 1697 at Cheshunt, Hertfordshire (Source Ancestry). Mary is recorded as living at Cheshunt on the marriage record.
The licence detailed the marriage place to be St Andrews Holborn.
The licence stated that William was aged 24 and Mary 23. They married on 27th December 1722 Hence a birth date of 1697/8.
I have traced all of William's descendants down to me (Robin Greenaway currently of Suffolk, England)
I have spent about 20 years trying to find William's actual birth date and his parents on any 'official' documented manuscript (the only record is the Ancestry record as detailed above) or entry record or copy at many London or Hertfordshire repositories and web sites.
I have no idea why he chose to marry by licence at St Andrews Holborn. I have explored all the well documented possible reasons. Could they have chosen to marry outside their parish because Mary was pregnant..I guess we will never know. And if this was the reason why chose St Andrew's Holborn?
So with this background in mind I have found a William Greenaway baptised 28th June 1702 at St Andrews Holborn son of Robert Greenaway and his wife Katherine. (Source 'Family Search').
I need to find William's actual birth date.
The fact that this William Greenaway was baptised at St. Andrews Holborn and the baptism date is 1702 is a 'possible' but tenuous link.
So..........
William is determined to have been born 1697/8 (age recorded on the marriage licence and the Ancestry entry)
His baptism was at St Andrews's Holborn. (See 'Family Search record)
His parents chose to have him baptised at St Andrews Holborn. (Was it their parish?)
Might William's parents wanted him to marry at St Andrew's Holborn?
There are no record's that I found that showed that Mary might have been pregnant before their marriage. Their first recorded child John was baptised 1724 at Cheshunt. They had further children in 1725 and 1730 at Cheshunt. They obviously returned to Cheshunt after their marriage.
I should add that I have searched the Cheshunt parish records (Hertfordshire record office) and can find no birth or baptism date for a William Greenaway c1698. There are records of William and Mary's children and further descendants on the Cheshunt parish register.
The mission is to find a written manuscript or document to prove or disprove William Greenaway's actual birth date and place.
Any help suggestion greatly appreciated.
Robin Greenaway
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I am cross posting this to the England Community Group to see what feedback they have.
@England Genealogy Research
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I have found many times that far back the Baptism record is the only record of birth I can find
They did not seen to record a birth then baptism like in modern years
At least that has been my limited experience
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Most researchers looking for a birth date of an ancestor / relative born around this time will have had the same experience as Lynda. In many cases, you will be fortunate to have found a likely baptism but, before civil registration, the main source for key dates ("vitals") will the the parish register(s). Occassionally, these do state a birth date instead of / as well as the one of the baptism, but this is generally the exception rather than the rule.
An example of mine is a 2x great-grandfather, born (almost certainly) in 1835. After 35 years, I have still found no baptism for him, nor any documents - I thought an apprenticeship record might be the most likely - that would give even a hint of a birth date.
With regards to baptism, this usually would have been shortly after birth at this period, but you can never be certain. Marriage licences frequently give totally inaccurate ages - I have found this especially true if there transpires to have been a large age gap between the bride and groom: ages were often changed to suggest a much smaller age difference. Also, "21" often means "over 21" and ages are sometimes rounded down to "30" or "40", for those in their 30s or 40s.
I would never say "give up", but you should be realistic and accept it is highly unlikely you will ever discover full details of his actual birth event.
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Most often the baptism occurs within 2 weeks of the child's birth, often the day after. Mortality was so high that it was important to baptize the baby in case he died. In some cases there may be 2 baptisms, one the day of birth (emergency baptism) and one a week or 2 later after it was clear the child would survive.
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Good afternoon Margaret. How kind of you to take the time to respond.
The subject, and results, so far, of my search 'finds' are/is I regret becoming ever more unlikely.
The search is for the birth/baptism of a William Greenaway.
I have his probable date of birth deduced from his marriage (by special licence (granted by the Bishop of London) when he and his wife were residing at Cheshunt in Hertfordshire) where it is stated he (the groom) was aged 24 when the marriage took place in 1722 at St Andrews Holborn.
Both William and his wife (a Mary Edmunds of CHeshunt) were both of the parish of Cheshunt in Hertfordshire as recorded on the application and licence granted. So his birth date should be c.1698.
Ancestry shows a William born 1697. But no record here of his parents.
William and Mary had children born in Cheshunt recorded from 1724. So after marriage they resided back at Cheshunt. I am descended from that William.
'Clutching at straws' I did find a couple named Robert Greenaway and Katherine (listed on Family Search) of St Andrews Holborn. They had a son William baptised 1702 at St Andrews Holborn.
To prove or not this 'might' be my William I have been trying to find his actual birth date/place.
Hence my enquiry and searches.
I realise this 'find' might be a very doubtful connection however since I have been trying to find my 'William' for nearly 20 years I follow up any possibilities, however remote.
Since I have no idea why William and Mary married at St Andrews when they lived at Cheshunt and returned there and had children (first child recorded as being baptised July 1724) I thought this might be a reason as to why they married at St Andrews. e.g.the family connection or parent's recommendation. I realise there are many reasons why couples seek marriage in a church other then their own parish and revealing why is now impossible I guess.
If this William (who married Mary in 1722) was born c 1697/8 then I guess it is unlikely the baptism found (Parent's Robert and Katherine) (1702) was probably too distant from the birth date.
Not expecting any further replies/suggestions from you but if you have any ideas I would be grateful. Again thanks for your kind interest and response.
Robin Greenaway (currently of Suffolk).
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Do you have a FamilySearch ID# for your relative? It would make it much easier to look at the data.
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I found the ID#G926-57W. The birth date of 9 Aug 1697 was put in on April 2019 by SedgwickEdnaM1
. Often these bits are from FamSearch source stubs which are documents but not 'official' documents so cannot be put into the record as such. You may want to email her and ask if she knows her source.
Since it would be unusual to be baptized 5 years later (28 Jun 1702), but the location is the same as where he was as a young man, I would put 1702 in as a brother of 1697. That way a least the info is not lost, and it is not hard to 'clean it up' if new info is found. If you want me to do this, let me know. Some families did name multiple children the same name as so many died in childhood.
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I've put your information in order as best I could on Family Search. Since records were so good in England at that time, I would consider that William was actually born in 1702 not 1697/8 and lied about his age at marriage, perhaps wanting to appear older than his bride.
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Hi again Margaret. Thanks again for your kind replies and help.
In 2019 I did send SedgwickEdnaM1 an e mail explaining my Greenaway connections and research in the hope we might correspond. I received no response.
I have today sent another message to him/her giving additional background and asked if we might correspond through this channel. Specifically I politely asked if she/him had any documentary evidence that might confidently connect William (born/baptised c 1697 or 1702) and his marriage to Mary Edmunds ......to Robert Greenaway and his wife Katherine of St Andrews Holborn.
I did add some information explaining that I had spent many, many hours inspecting the parish registers for Cheshunt at the Herts Record Office looking for a William born about this time. None found but there are Greenaway entries and many spelling variants (BMD's) dating back to the early 1600's and before that at Watton-At-Stone a village not far from Cheshunt. Again no William found but the church incumbent's script is so difficult to decipher on some pages.
Indeed I inspected all the original parish registers (on film) within 20 miles of Cheshunt and did not find a William.
I will not bore you further unless you have any thoughts.
Thanks again
Robin Greenaway.
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