Hello everyone, I am trying to find a family member, and he is the farthest back we can find in his
I am trying to find a family member, and he is the farthest back we can find in his line. We can't find parents, birth/christening records, or census. Any help would be great!!
Hello,
I have been trying to find an ancestor for many years, and I would love some help trying to find him. I am trying to find any record for Augustine C. Vanmoll. His ID is LWB9-ZJ5. There are many variations on his name, and he emmigrated to the United States in 1838. He claims he was born in Lille, Nord, France on his civil war registration card, but other sources say he was Flemish. We don't know his parents, we don't have an actual birth record (only what he says), and I'm not sure what language he even spoke. His middle name in some records is Cornelius which is more of a Dutch or German name, so I'm not even sure where he was from. I know during the 1830's-1840's, there was many revolutions happening in Europe, so it is possible that some records were lost, including his. We have been looking for many years, and we haven't found much on him from before he moved to America. I speak a little Dutch, Swedish, German, and French, but not enough to read all the records. Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!!
Here is his person: https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/LWB9-ZJ5
Answers
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In the 1860 census, he claims to be from Antwerp. So I checked both Lille (France) and Antwerp (Belgium), but neither has anyone with the name Van Moll. Then I remembered there is a village in Belgium called Lille, not to far from a village called Mol. It is possible that he said "I'm from Lille" and the administrator thinking that must be the city in France.
This village does have people called Van Mol. There is one in 1820 (9 February), but he's called Petrus Franciscus. You can find the birth certificate on scan 404 of https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939X-XDS6-N6?i=403&wc=Q82R-25Q%3A1007948401%2C1485710201&cc=2138481
This could still be him, but this is far from certain. Maybe he was from a village near Lille. This website (https://bskempen.be/database.htm) does have a downloadable database with index of the civil record for some villages (including Lille), but it only works on windows and I'm on mac.
PS: this site looks dodgy, but I found it via https://geneaknowhow.net/digi/bronnen.html, so I guess it's legit. Downloading a zip file that contains an exe file sounds like a bad idea though.
Some additional comments:
- Augustinus Cornelius sound like the Latin-ized version of a Flemish name, similar to Petrus Franciscus in fact.
- Have you searched for his migration papers? That could contain useful information.
- You say "we haven't found much on him from before he moved to America", do you have anything besides what is linked on the familysearch page?
- The familysearch page says he was born on 29 December 1820, where is that date coming from?
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Thiebout & Lydia,..
Thiebout could be correct about Lille Antwerp. One of the sources mentiones "omtrek Turnhout" , and that is what i would keep on the foreground.The spelling is certainly anglicized, and if Flemisch or Dutch the correct spelling would be probably Vanmol or Van Mol, the second L is added probably by the scribe in America.I found some Van
Mol people in the Felixarchive Antwerp, but not the correct ones, only proving that the name exists in Antwerp.
But born in or around 1820 in Lille Antwerp, would make him technically a Dutch
citizen,as Belgium was only founded much later; so the name must appear in the Dutch databases, have a lot of Augustines and show itself to be existent around
Lille Antwerp,Belgium today and back in the days.
Openarch in the column right hand side comes up with this=>
https://www.openarch.nl/search.php?top&name=vanmol&number_show=10&sort=1&start=260
returning 53 pages of entry's some of them,to pay attention to, Lommel, Mol, Geel
as these are spitting distance to Lille Antwerp.. I did not flick true the gears of it all, but there are a lot of Augusts
So probably this is the correct spelling/location/nationality
What is your opinion Thiebout?
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I pretty much agree, but since you asked, here are some comments:
- I would start with the villages close to Lille and work my way out.
- Anyone called August Van Mol born around Lille between 1810 and 1822 is a possible match. I don't think he would say "I'm from Lille", if he was actually from Lommel. So either he live so close that it was unclear, e.g. lived in Gierle, but thought he lived in Lille. Or he moved there later in live and forgot about that because he was to young.
- I would say he became Belgian in 1830. (supposing he was still living there) Either way he'd be Flemish.
- Augustine sounds female to me because of the e, am I wrong?
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Thiebout,i took the liberty to browse some Lille (Antwerp) cataloog,to make sure the naming was present in the period of intrest,and present in Lille(Antwerp) in the catalogues.So=> following your lead
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939X-XDSN-4C?i=194&cc=2138481&cat=88439
Entry 25 right hand page,as far as i can see, Anne Catherine Van Mol , Died in 1811 in Lille.But your french is better than mine,so feel free to correct me.It only proves the
use of the name locally and the presence.
I agree on most you stated,and indeed, he must be Flemish,but only became that after 1830_50, as he was born supposedly in or around 1820..So Dutch of birth.
I do not really think Augustine is the female form, it could be the French way of writing Augustijn,anyway in the birtcertificate, it would probably be written as Augustinus, and today we would probably write August, or Gust..
But given the link to Lille and the catalogue there in that period is written in French, as you can see, i would hold to the French form/origin
Adrie
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Thiebout, i checked this Petrus Franciscus, but unfortunately he died some days later the same month.=>
Also , found more children of the parents ,all daughters, between 1816 and 1820
But no evidence of a possible Augustinus van mol.This family could be related, tough , and has ties with Gierle.
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Yesterday I browsed through the index tables of Lille and neighboring villages. We have the family of Petrus Van Mol, but he seems to be the only one in Lille are anywhere near. Neither did any Van Mol
die in Lille between 1820 and 1870 except for Petrus and Petrus Franciscus. So it seems like he should be related to them.
Now, I just found the birth certificate of Gommarius Cornelius Wouters, son of Anna Catharina Vekemans, half brother of Petrus Franciscus Van Mol. So, his parents might never have told him that Petrus was not his real father, hence he thought to be a Van Mol. The name change from Gommarius to Augustinus remains, but could still be an explanation. The record: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939X-XDS6-RC?i=385&wc=Q82R-25Q:1007948401,1485710201&cc=2138481
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Thiebout, After an extensive search yesterday, i found some other De Mol's but also came to this tempting conclusion you made; but there is no proof, it will remain an assumption.Taken all these names and periods in account,anyway he should show up in Het Belgisch Rijksarchief or in open arch , but he somehow does not.But not everything is digitised yet.
But it kept bugging me,and i'm balancing on another possibility regarding the location,and today i was browsing this one.
The location,at first and initial oldest source could possibly be written down in handwriting and Lille-could be "Lillo", the o mistaken for an e......and that would implicate that we should search Lillo (as i have done today) as this is In Antwerp,
and close to Gierle, Poederlee(all possible loc's)...i did not find him in the year he should have been born there,but found some two other Van Mol's like this one, proving the existence of the name there.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DC47-66D?i=9&cc=2138481&cat=88557
linksonder(ik heb er nog twee.) Nu moet ik eerst eten.
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Hier is nog eentje als voorbeeld.Op lijn 10 Isabelle Van Mol
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DC47-673?i=28&cc=2138481&cat=88557
en,... Van Mol , Lillo.
http://www.lillo-fort.be/Overleden2.html
Dus Lillo is een goede mogelijke locatie, en de naam komt voor alhoewel de dubbele LL
heb ik daar nog niet gezien.
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With "this tempting conclusion" I suppose you mean that Augustine Van Mol was related to Petrus Van Mol. But what do you think of the Gommarius Cornelius Wouters theory? I checked and he didn't die in Lille before 1843.
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Yes, Thiebout, that was what i implicated.And , yes, your theory about Gommarius could be a possible explanation for
the case.The name Cornelius in his name makes it extra tempting...,and indeed,he did not die there, as you checked.
We have no indication where he died, or lived.I think we should keep in mind that many people became emigrants, and possibly he did move out , or simply went to another town.Yesterday i came across some other hits on the web that could mean something , or not..
https://geneaknowhow.net/script/dewit/kadastrale-legger_lillo-1855.htm
4 maal de naam van Mol, verschillende keren Cornelius erbij en Petrus,zowel als Lillo, Stabroek,Antwerpen, Putte en allicht ook Ekeren ergens.Gegevens zijn van een oude kadastrale legger.
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I checked out the Stabroek catalogue this afternoon,found 3 Van Mol's even one in the birthyear 1820 , but female,and no trace of our target.
So he is not born in Stabroek.
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Bad news from my side as well: Gommarius Cornelius Wouters is not the have brother of Petrus Franciscus Van Mol. There mothers had the same name, but one was born in Lier (see birth certificate of Gommarius), while the other was born in Lille (see her death certificate: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939X-XDSC-DF?i=718&wc=Q82R-25Q:1007948401,1485710201&cc=2138481)
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Yes, i see, difficult to read but clearly Lille and Lier.One of the problems we have,is that
we have no certainty about the name Cornelius,...until now the C is shown, could be
Camiel/Camillus/ or anything beginning wit a C.
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Thank you all for your answers. Sorry for the late reply, it's been a crazy week. My and my family have looked into the leads everyone found, but we aren't able to access many of the links. I think it is because we are in the United States. I will continue to look into what everyone found though.
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Question: Sorry if it seems silly, but I'm slightly confused/unsure on how Augustin could be Petrus. I mean, I understand the latinization, but is how would Petrus and Augustin be close to eachother. I'm just trying to understand everyone's leads.
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Interesting thought on the Lille lead. I think it could be very possible. Another record from Augustin claims he was from Germany. I'm not sure if that throws in another variable, or debunks any possibilities.
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Lydia, It was a case of a possible switched identity, as the mothers had the same name,but were born in different towns.
So it yielded no info.Basically we used a lot of words to say that we have no gain. We have a second location to keep an eye on,"Lillo", a little village that has been dissolved for most part, but is in Antwerp as a dependency.There are Van Mol's there,but i found no match in the birthyear 1820.Again,all the little towns around the area are candidates....
We are basically getting stuck because all or nearly all sources in the tree you folks made, have a common initial source
that could be wrong on the birthyear and location. I do not think August would be from Lille (France), as in the Flemish part of Belgium, we say " Rijssel" if we are talking about Lille.And , moreover , why would he state "Antwerp" on another occasion? (Not impossible as Antwerp was mostly the port of departure to America),so that is why we kept this on the plate.
It is possible that he was not truthfull on his age as many countries had requirements for age and skills,and maybe he did not use his own name, to apply for documents (as was often done/same reason); en kept the other identity to go by as his documents returned approved..........People also lie to escape the risk for military draft in the future.
It remains very strange that i do not Find him in the Ellis island records, as i should, ar in the Belgian rijksarchief , as he is supposed to be there.He does not show up anywhere.
Lydia , do you have anything , a possible lead to his immigration, via Canada,Ellis island?
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And , Yes , many links are temporarely unavailiable,some warehouses are closed due covid and cuttently the site itself here is under restructuring;will work on another time
shortly.
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I don't believe we have his immigration record. I think it says it on a census or something. Sorry for the vague answers!! He's a very odd person. He says he's from a different place in different records. He lived in massachusetts, so he might have come into the country around there?
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I do not know the exact year the different states on themselves kept on receiving immigrants,but on a certain moment
in the past, the receiving was centralised and centered around Ellis Island only, from then on this was always the point of entry.But i did not find him in the records there.I will try to use the term Massachusetts related to his name...
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You are on a good track, the switch of the year was in 1891! , until then Massachusetts
itself kept immigration records,see here=>
https://www.sec.state.ma.us/arc/arcsrch/passengermanifestsearchcontents.html
try out their records?
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This could be tempting , spelled as Augustus; could be him,but i do not want a free trail.
Can you make a free trail?
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Okay, thank you
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Our library has a membership with fold3!! I will check it out!
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I looked at it, and yes, it is him and his family. Their whole family fought in the civil war. Unfortunately, it did not provide any birth place or date.
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Unfortunately, the link you sent me starts in 1848, and he was married in 1840. In an article about him and his sons, it says he immigrated in 1838. Would that help at all?
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Difficult to say ,as most emigration archives that are Kept in the city of Antwerp only date back to 1855 and later.
I only found one person having the name of Augustinus Van Mol until now, but the certificate misses the C in the name; and he is born in 1835 in a different town.This one=>born in Welle
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-66P8-9C?i=41&cc=2138513&cat=17080
The difficulty in the archives until now,for most part, is that i do not find him in the indexed books in Antwerp, neither Antwerp proper,Antwerp Province, or Lille/Lillo Antwerp in the years i should find him.....And if i search Lille /France
most catalogue's are not digitised yet or inaccessible.
The search still continues.....
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The period was very difficult, because the militia was ruling the streets from 1830 to 1839.I found nearly all catalogues
about the migration exodus from Antwerp to...etc, but they all start only as early as 1842, also i found all indexes for the period and the birthyears itself for the whole of Antwerp and the period specific, but it is so big its scary...
I will place the links tomorrow.
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This Antwerp repository contains most of migration related files for the whole Province of Antwerp (altough most foreigners living in Antwerp that time,are in another archive), that does not contain 'him'(checked) but if you are interested , these foreigners are for most part in the Felix-archive/another part in the Police-archives.
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/1020364?availability=Family History Library
You will see, that they only start as early as 1840,after the period of our intrest.
But feel free to browse, and sharpen your skills.
The 10 years indexes for the period of your ancestor and the year 1820 specific
should be here....
First the 10 yrs index, second line on this link
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/57707?availability=Family History Library
Alphabetical,but the yrs in order of appearance, two volume batches in the set , one for A_L and one for L_Z following the same order.
The year itself 1820(for whole Antwerp.)
https://www.familysearch.org/search/film/004253786?i=4&cc=2138481&cat=57707
Same system , alphabetical, in order of appearance all having an indexed part at the end of the year, very simple.
The surrounding years like 1821 and 1819 are in the link with the 10 year indexes.
There is another catch....you have to search Vanmol under the V as it is suspected to be understood written contracted, but under the V also if written separated; but under the M if the file has a small column before the name to separate the Van or De or Vande =>like in this example with this_van 'Mol'-Pierre , right page line 15
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9RGH-9BVB?i=283&cc=2138481&cat=57707
Please bookmark them all, i do not store them.
Adrie
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Lydia, browsing the archives In 'Lisle' (France), 'Berlaar'(Province Antwerp Belgium ) and ''Lier"(Province Antwerp; in French called "Lierre") I came across an Augustinus Van Mol
born in 1820;However the_C is missing in the name and so , probably this is not our target person.Left side lower part=>
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9Q97-YMB5-NFD?i=196&cc=2138481&cat=60377
Berlaar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlaar
Lier (Lierre)/--i used it because of the fonetic resemblance with Lille and because of
finding many Van Mol hits around these places.
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lier_(België)
Also , i found a big cluster of Van Moll's in Bergeijk (Netherlands), and Mardorf (Germany), but these are gone nowadays.
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