Indexed data present but not visible
My GG-GM's baptism and birth details are on https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QGLJ-52JH which is in Scotland, Presbyterian & Protestant Church Records, 1736-1990. Her index record (where she is, of course, the principal) shows no sign of her birth or baptism:
On the other hand, those values are there in the index record, because when I Review the Attachments of this (attached) index record, I can see the 2 dates, viz:
How can they (Birth and Christening) be there in the Source Linker view but not visible in the display of the index record?
NB - the dates aren't in her parents' personas on this record - I checked just in case they'd been spun round somehow from the principal to another.
Answers
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Good morning @Adrian Bruce1
Those records are, of course, restricted to view at an FSC or affiliate library. I recently noticed a new banner while searching in restricted records while at my FSC. I wonder if the two are related?
The banner appears to indicate that the index/extract is also restricted:
Happy to put that one on my list for my next visit to confirm/refute the hypothesis.
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@Adrian Bruce1 Great observations, both of you. I have noticed this lack of complete data carrying over to the details page in other collections. I can't say if they were restricted to FSC's but that might be the logical answer. I'll see what I can find out.
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@Áine Ní Donnghaile - now I don't remember seeing that banner before. I would say that it appears to be a helpful message, especially when compared to what FS tells its customers currently / previously.
@SerraNola - I tried to see if I could find any further clues.
Firstly, I only realised when digging further that there's no location on that index either. That's confirmation bias on my part, I suspect - the Scotland, Presbyterian & Protestant Church Records, 1736-1990 record is the third index for her birth and baptism (christening) so I hadn't gone beyond the missing dates to notice the omission of the placename (which is United Associate Congregation, Lochee, Angus, Scotland on the other baptism indexes).
The Scotland, Presbyterian & Protestant Church Records, 1736-1990 collection claims to have been "filmed at the National Archives of Scotland, CH3 series", which suggests this is all under the control of the NAS, i.e. ScotlandsPeople, so I wouldn't expect to see images.
When I do a query on that collection, looking for Annie's baptism, this is what I see in the search results list:
Notice that her Christening date is present on the Results List but cannot be seen if you select the record to see the detail of what's on it. Yes, another mismatch of results versus file - except not quite the same circumstances.
There's another issue with that search - when I tried it the first time, I entered her parents' names and then her name as "Ann Bruce" - well, I would because that is her name 😉. But that search doesn't find her baptism - it gives 25 baptisms, none of which are her. I have to omit her surname for it to find the record, at which point it finds just one, as shown. It's as if it's looking for children with a blank surname, which is nonsensical. An omitted surname means "any surname" not "blank surname".
What I was also looking for was whether any of the other records in this collection had Birth and Baptism values - and they do, so any contractual restrictions on any appearance of Birth and / or Baptism don't apply throughout the collection. Hmm…
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Adrian - I first noticed that banner on 25 Feb 2025. I made a note of it because it was a change from the earlier banner. And, I visit my FSC frequently.
The previous banner seen at my FSC was slightly comical, as it suggested that there were restricted records I might see IF I would install the portal. Of course, the portal is already installed which is why I could see the banner.😎The banner at the affiliate library is slightly different.
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@Adrian Bruce1 I am able to see the images for this collection and event location was not indexed. Film header and citation show "Dundee" and of course that was standardized to "Dundee, Forfarshire" in search results. The place name is not found on the image but is on the last page of the film:
Now, here's where I get confused. I was not able to find Ann's record with Search at all and am wondering how you were able to retrieve it. Ann is on Image 19 of DGS 4126938 and the film viewer shows 27 indexed names with parents, birth date, and christening date. Each show no dates in Index Details. All can be attached in Source Linker. None of the 27 come up in search results. Whatever caused the indexed data to be present but not visible affected all on this image, but not Image 18 or 20. Why this happened, plus why they are not searchable is a question for the engineers.
Here's a few other names on that image: Jane Buchan, Betsy Cuttor, and Jane Ramsay, all born in 1846.
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@SerraNola - thanks for that investigation. Very "interesting"!!
To find Annie's record with a Search, the criteria are:
I hope you can click that! I don't claim that the criteria are particularly useful to a researcher but I was getting annoyed with not being able to search for something that was right in front of me and eventually found a way of making her record appear… If you then give Ann a Last Name of Bruce in this search, she disappears and another, completely different record in the collection, appears instead.
Incidentally 1: "… The place name is not found on the image but is on the last page of the film…" Yes, the other two sources attached for her baptism / christening / birth have "United Associate Congregation, Lochee, Angus, Scotland" or variations on that, as the Event Place (Original). So all three indexes have different Original Event Places. It happens… I didn't realise someone would have to go to the final image of the film to find it, though.
Incidentally 2: This is actually one of the very few registers I have held in my hand. It is (or was when I saw it) at Dundee City Archives. I'd found Annie in the IGI in batch C190481 (so that's going back a bit). The image wasn't online then so it had to wait to my next visit to Dundee, when I spent some time trying to decipher her birth date of the 3rd of "squiggle"! I wouldn't protest too much if someone else came to a different conclusion…
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@Adrian Bruce1 If you put Scotland in as the birth place in your search, no results are found. That's why she didn't come up for me. However, I still couldn't retrieve Betsy Cuttor and several others even with only the film number and with or without parents. Clearly there's issues with the indexing of that particular image. Every person christened either had no surname or was given the mother's surname.
The issue with adding the last name is the same as adding the birth place. Neither were found on the index but should not have prevented the algorithm from bringing them up. I will need to investigate to see if it's only happening on that page or across the board.
Cool, to think that you handled that document! Not many of us get that opportunity.
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