Help with a man's occupation description
It’s disappointing that this group page is still not fixed to allow posting images, as my current archion.de subscription is running out…but I’m wondering if someone can help with a possible Stand or Beruf description.
I’ve found records in the 1700s for a fifth-great-grandfather, a shoemaker in Ansbach, Bayern. However, there are also a couple of records in the same parish for someone with the same name but different description that I can’t make sense of.
It looks like Gardereiter or Gardeitiner in one record. And in another it’s a variation: Altreiter or Altreiser (probably “alt” as in “former”). I’m assuming this guy is a different person, maybe the father of the shoemaker or at least a relative.
I can’t find anything like these terms in online lists of occupations or in old dictionaries. Does anyone have a suggestion what this man’s description might be?
Also, is there a place to look for updates on the status of repairs to this group page? It's always been so helpful to be able to post images.
Thank you,
Elda
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@Elda Stone Unfortunately, the problem with attaching images is not just in the Germany Research group but in the entire community. The engineers and the vendor know and are trying to repair.
And a workaround has also been posted.
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@Áine Ní Donnghaile Oh, thank you! I've seen other posts that people have passed along from the administrators about the problem, but couldn't actually find the original posts in order to keep up with the progress. I will certainly try the work-around.
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Hello @Elda Stone,
I am familiar with a database of abstracted Ansbach records called the Brenner Collection on Ancestry. If I can find the abstracted family group sheet for your fifth-great-grandfather, his occupation may be listed in the abstract. His father may also be listed in the abstract.
Please provide the name of your ancestor, what village/town/city he specifically lived in, and his birth and death dates if known. If it's a common name, please provide the maiden name of his wife if known.
Also provide the same information for the other person with the same name.
FYI: If the second part of the words you have described in your request is actually "Reiter", this word translates as: rider, or cavalry soldier.
The word "Gard(e) = guard.
The word "Alt" = old.
Best regards, Robert Seal_1
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I've been having trouble with replying here. Please delete any multiples of my response to Robert if it ends up being posted more than once!
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Hello @Elda Stone,
The only response I have from you is the one requesting deletion of any multiples of your response. Did you send another response? Let me know. I would be happy to try to assist you in your request.
Best regards, Robert_Seal 1
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@Robert_Seal 1
I tried three times to post the details you asked me for, in order to check the Brenner Collection, but nothing has shown up. Once, I briefly saw a pop-up saying my post would appear after it had been approved, so I thought I was too impatient and posted it multiple times! I'll wait a bit and try again. Thanks for your offer of help!
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Okay, I'll wait patiently to see if your post eventually appears.
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@Elda Stone If you are trying to post the information for Robert as an image, that still won't work. You'll need to post as text. If you need help, please feel free to send me a private message, and I'll be glad to try.
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OK, I'm trying again.
@Robert Seal_1
Oh, that sounds good, if you would take a look. I let my Ancestry subscription lapse for a while, but quite a while ago I found one record in that Brenner Collection - the marriage record of my great-grandmother Babette Gehbauer Helmreich, 1887 in Kornberg. I've been getting most of my research on Archion these days and haven't searched further back in the Brenner abstracts.
It's Babette's ancestors that I'm finding the most information on lately. My current question on the two Sültzer ancestors starts with my fourth-great-grandfather:
GEORG SIXT GEHBAUER (or Gebauer)
b. 26 Aug. 1745, illegitimate son of Anton Gehbauer and Apollonia; however Anton married Maria Magdelena ___? 22 Jan. 1745 before Georg was born (both records from Ansbach-Militärgemeinde).
m. Anna Sibylla (or Sybilla) SÜLTZER(or Sülzer), 11 Nov. 1776 (marriages Ansbach-Militärgemeinde). She was born 15 April 1754 (births Ansbach St. Johannis parish); died 21 June 1786 (deaths Ansbach-Militärgemeinde).
d. 31 Dec. 1819, Windsbach, Bayern (burials Windsbach)FRANZ DAVID SÜLTZER, Schumacher (Anna Sybilla’s father)
b. about 1708
m. Susanna Barbara, geb. Meyer(in), date unknown (mother's name on Anna Sibylla's birth record)
d. 15 Dec. 1758 at age 50 (burials Ansbach St. JohannisFRANZ DAVID SÜLTZER, Gardereiter? also Altereiter (not sure if he is related to shoemaker by same name)
He's mentioned as father in burial records for two children (Ansbach-St.Johannis): Margaretha, died 6 Oct. 1730, 4 weeks old, and Branford, died 26 July 1740, 9 months 9 days old. I found these by checking the indexes available for burials in this parish, but haven't looked back at births yet.
If this post works, I'll also try uploading images of those two uses of the words Gardereiter/Altereiter via that work-around that Áine posted above.
Thanks so much,
Elda1 -
Hello @Elda Stone,
I received your message. Thanks for providing the information. I'm working on this now and hope to get back to you with what I find in the Brenner collection tomorrow.
Best regards, Robert Seal
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Hello @Elda Stone,
(1) I found only one record for Franz David Sulzer in the Brenner Collection. It is his marriage record with Susanna Barbara Mayer/Meyer. Here is the link to that record on Ancestry: https://www.ancestry.com/sharing/13829633?mark=7b22746f6b656e223a226e364d775a6b3475594a5836383275573358325659704c516430724b5451556566464b6a385552416457513d222c22746f6b656e5f76657273696f6e223a225632227d
Franz is recorded in this abstract as Franziskus David Sulzer and his occupation is record as "Inwohner" = inhabitant. His father is recorded as the deceased Johann Caspar Sulzer from Hohen-Tübingen. His father's occupation is "Wachtmeister" = police patrolmen or cavalry sergeant (definitions from Thode).
His wife is Susanna Barbara Mayer. Susanna's father is Michael Mayer, a master mason from Darmstadt.
The marriage took place in Ansbach on 8 June 1728.
Note: There is no second page to this record where any children would have been recorded.
(2) You mentioned the two death/burial records for Margretha and "Bradford" (actually "Leonhard"), children of Franz David Sulzer.
I found both of these records on FHL DGS no. 102808939.
The link for Margaretha's burial is: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSDY-6S2S-9?i=11&cat=410380
Margretha is record no. 204 on the right-hand page and translates as: Margretha, legitimate little daughter of Franz David Sülzer, Altreissen, here; her age 4 weeks, died/buried 6 October 1730.
The word "Altreiss" translates as: repairer of old shoes, cobbler (definitions from Thode).
So this is likely to be your Franz David Sülzer, the shoemaker.
The link for the other child who died in 1740 is: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSDY-6SN3-5?i=81&cat=410380
It is record no. 257 on the right-hand page and translates as: Leonhard [not "Bradford"] Sulzer former Gartÿreuther's child, 3/4 year old, died/buried 26 July 1740.
Note that the child is not named in this record and the child's father is Leonhard Sulzer. Leonhard may be related to your Franz David Sulzer but further research would be required.
What we are both reading as "Gartÿreüther" may be some form of "Garde-Reiter" = Guard-Rider or Guard-Cavalry Soldier. If you google the word "Garde-Reiter" you will find a number of examples of this word online in the form: "Garde-Reiter Regiment".
Note: When I refer to "Thode" above I am referring to the following reference book: Ernest Thode, German-English Genealogical Dictionary.
FYI: The Brenner Collection is also online at FamilySearch at this link: https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/346818?availability=Family%20History%20Library
I hope this helps you with your research. If you have any questions, please ask.
Best regards, Robert Seal_1
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@Robert Seal_1
Wonderful! Thank you so much for your work.
About that “G___?” word on the Leonhard Sulzer record: I noticed on record 251 on the same page, a similar G word is in front of “Müller,” but maybe more decipherable to you. I can’t make it out. Not a critical bit of information, but I’m just curious and like to understand new words to recognize.
This whole line of research started a couple years ago from one small advertisement in a 19th Century German newspaper for the area. I found it on a random Google search on a family name. The ad said the Windsbach church was looking for a new sexton due to the death of Herr Gehbauer. I knew one of my ancestors came from Windsbach, so I started searching. That has led to a whole bunch of new discoveries.
I so appreciate the help available on this community group!
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You're welcome, @Elda Stone. It was a fun research project.
Thanks for pointing out another example of the "G___?" which turns out to be a "g___" word, which is the German word "gewesen" = former.
So Leonhard Sulzer in record no. 257 is a former Guard-Rider/Guard-Cavalry Soldier.
Note: I went back and edited my response from 8:48 am this morning to change the unknown "g" word "gewesen" to the word "former" in my translation of the 1740 death/burial record for Leonhard Sulzer's child.
I agree with you that random Google searches can turn up some amazing tidbits of information.
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@Elda Stone Your images were added to your first post.
Sam 😊
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Hello @Elda Stone,
Based on the newly-posted image from Archion, I am going to revise my interpretation of the 1740 burial record of "Leonhard Sulzer". The Archion record is more complete than the FamilySearch record. I now see that Leonard Sulzer is in fact the son of Franz David Sulzer.
Here is the translation of your Archion record:
Number: 255/Subnumber: 31.
Date of burial: Tuesday, 26 July 1740.
Surname of decedent: Sulzer.
Forename of decedent: Leonhard.
Father: Franz David Sulzer, guard-rider.
Cause of death: "Blattern" = measles, pox.
Age at death: 9 months (which is the same as 3/4 year in the FamilySearch record).
My comments: Since this appears to be the only Franz David Sulzer in the Ansbach and Brenner Collection records, you could assume that he is the same person as your shoemaker in the 1728 marriage record, and the 1730 and 1740 burial records, until and if subsequent research proves otherwise.
I still read the father's occupation as "Altreiss" = repairer of old shoes/cobbler in the Archion 1730 burial record for Margretha Sulzer.
If you have questions, please ask.
Best regards, Robert Seal_1
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Hello again @Elda Stone
Here is my reinterpretation of Leonhard Sulzer's July 1640 burial record which I found on FamilySearch: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSDY-6SN3-5?i=81&cat=410380
Translation:
257. Leonhard Sulzer, former guard-rider's child, 3/4 years [old], [buried] 26 July 1740.
Best regards, RobertSeal_1
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Thanks for amending your notes on the two versions of this record.
With the information about the children's deaths, the abstract on Franz David Sulzer's marriage, the names of his and his bride's fathers, and more, there's a lot to digest here.
I do have more questions, if you've got time. First, the Brenner Collection record says his father is from Hohen-Tübingen, but Meyersgaz doesn't recognize that place name. I did find "Tübingen, Tübingen, Schwarzwaldkreis, Württemberg." Would that be it?
I thought "gewesen"/former meant deceased, as in "the late Franz David." Or in this case does it just mean that he formerly was a guard-rider? Because if it always means deceased, then I'm confused.
He is described with "gewesen" in the burial records of the two children who died in 1730 and 1740. But his daughter Anna Sibylla's birth record in 1754 does not mention "gewesen" in front of Franz David's name, only that he is Schumacher. And I have the burial record for Franz David Sulzer, Schumacher, in December 1758.
If it's the same man, he married in 1728; lost infants in 1730 and 1740 when he was a former guard-rider; his daughter Anna Sibylla married in 1754, after he became a shoemaker; he died in 1758; and after his death lost a 14-year-old daughter Louise Charlotte in 1765. That one appears to have a "v." in front of his name, which I take to stand for "verstorben" - not "Vater," since none of the other fathers on that page have a V.
I'm going to use the image work-around to ask to add the burials of Franz David and Louise Charlotte.
Thanks again for helping make sense of all this!
Elda
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Hello @Elda Stone,
You're welcome.
(1) I agree with you that Hohen-Tübingen probably refers to the place Tübingen in Meyers Gazetteer: https://www.meyersgaz.org/place/20977015
Note there there is a castle in Tübingen called Schloss Hohentübigen: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schloss_Hohent%C3%BCbingen
Use your browser's translate function to translate to English.
So you should feel comfortable interpreting this place as Tübingen.
(2) No, the word "gewesen" has multiple meanings (from Thode): been; former; late. I generally translate "gewesen" as "former" unless the context suggests otherwise. I took this to mean in the 1740 burial record of Leonhard, that Franz David was still alive and he used to be a guard-rider or was a former guard-rider (but now he is something else (shoemaker) which was not recorded in the record).
Also note that the word "gewesen" does not appear in either version of Margretha's 1730 burial records.
Thus, your December 1758 burial date for Franz David still holds true.
(3) Without seeing the record, it is difficult for me to interpret the meaning of the "v." But your reasoning makes sense.
I enjoyed working with you on this research project.
Best regards, Robert Seal_1
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Thank you for clarifying. And my mistake on Margretha's record - sorry. Like I said, it's been a lot to take in! 😁
I did request addition of additional images to this thread, so they may show up later.
That's interesting about Tübingen (and Darmstadt). That's a fair distance from Ansbach and Nürnberg, where most of this family line had been concentrated so far.
When I get all my notes straightened out, I'll be back to Archion to see what else I can find!
Elda
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It was my pleasure to assist, Elda.
Best regards, Robert
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Here are the additional images.
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Hello @Elda Stone,
Here is the translation for the burial record of Franz David Sulzer:
Number of the record: 331.
Number of the burial in the month of December 1758: 6.
Date of burial: Friday, 15 Dec 1758.
Surname of the decedent: Sultzer.
Forenames of the decedent: Frantz David.
Occupation: shoemaker.
Cause of death: "Schwindsucht" = consumption.
Age at death: 50 years.
Comment: I like the notes you add to the image — that's a very smart thing to do.
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Hello @Elda Stone,
Here is the translation of the burial record for Louise Charlotte Sulzer:
Number: 221.
Number of the burial in the month of July 1765: 12.
Date of burial: Friday, 12 July 1765.
Surname of the decedent: Sultzer(in).
Forenames of the decedent: Louise Charlotte.
Parent of the decedent and decedent's status: the deceased? Frantz David Sulzer, shoemaker's? daughter.
Cause of death: "Auszehrung"? = consumption.
Age at death: 14 years.
My comments: A few questionable items are marked with ?. The "v." for "verstorben" makes sense. I also think you may be correct that the abbreviation after Franz David's name may be for "shoemaker". I'm not sure of the cause of death because it's very difficult to read but that's my assumption as to what is written there based on the shape of the fuzzy letters.
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Thanks again, Robert. At least a plausible story is coming together about this man and some of his family. I'll be making a list of more things to look for next time I get on Archion.
I appreciate your input on this search!
Elda
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You're very weclome, Elda.
Best regards, Robert
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