Re: German translation
Hello, my name is Michael Fergus. FamilySearch has come up with the death certificate (see attached) of my G/G/G/G Grandfather Johann Michael Mayer - 4th name down
on the document. The 6th column says Rrantbeit. I believe this translates to his job or occupation. Is there anyone who could help me with this word as I cannot read the exact spelling and also help me with the translation?
Thank you in advance.
Best Answer
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Julia and Aine,
You have both been so helpful. Thank you very much. Definitely one thing I am fixated on is trying to find out what my ancestors did back in Germany. I have attached the baptism records of my Great Grandmother Anne Marie Uhren as well as her mother's Anne Margaretha Mayer.
Is there anything helpful in these documents that could possibly point me towards the occupation of the father?
Thanks
Mike
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Answers
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The column is entitled Krankheit, meaning illness - the cause of death.
Sorry - but I can't decipher the word in the case of Michael. Too small, and if I enlarge, too fuzzy.
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Hi Aine,
Thank you so much for your help. Is there anything on this document that would have shown what Johann's occupation was?
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@MichaelFergus1, can we please have a link to the image? The image-viewing tools in this forum leave much to be desired under the best of circumstances, and when combined with That Dratted German Handwriting, it all just becomes mostly hopeless.
The cause of death looks like Alters-something, i.e. old age.
It appears that they did not record the deceased's occupation in this register. The columns are: number; name of deceased and date and place of birth; (marital) status, character, residence, and religion; parents; spouse; age; illness or cause of death; place and time of death; place and time of burial; and page number in the family register. The "character" part of the column after the name could probably be interpreted as the place to record the occupation, but in practice, this registrar appears to have simply ignored that bit.
Johann Michael was born 4 June 1778, he was a widower, his residence was the same as everyone else's (Erligs-something?), and he was Roman Catholic. He was aged 89 years and 2 months. He died on the 3rd and was buried on the 5th of August (of 1867), both at 10 in the morning (I think).
There may be an occupation given for the deceased's father, but I can't make it out. (Something dahier "locally".) I think dad was Bernhard Conrad Mayer, mom was Elisabeth Mager (with an umlaut on the g, which I don't get at all), and spouse was Sabina Margareta Am-something. I think. Maybe.
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Thanks, Julia. I was hoping you would stop by. My tired eyes were struggling!
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Again, Michael, as Julia said earlier, it would be very helpful if you would provide the URL to the record, rather than just the image. When we have the URL, we can enlarge and manipulate the record to have a better view. And we can compare the handwriting to another page in the same recordset, to better understand how the registrar or priest wrote and what was recorded.
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Yay, these are in Latin, so they're normal handwriting. Still awfully difficult given the (dearth of) available image-viewing tools, but I think the 1824 father was a shepherd (ovium custodis "sheep custodian"), and the 1862 father was a laborer (operarius).
Are these images restricted? Is that why you're not providing the links?
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https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N5ND-2DC
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N2ZS-19Q
Here are 2 of them. Still looking for the 3rd one.
Let me know if this helps.
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Aine and Julia,
I am sorry I am putting you through this hassle. Sometimes I am not the most adept at computer things. The 2 attachments I just sent you have to do with what I was able to get out of the FamilySearch website. There was no image available, so I reached out to Family History Library support. As long as I provided them this information, they were able to send me a copy of the image in an email. That copy of the image is what I originally sent you. Am I missing something that could help you? I can forward the email to both of you that I received from FHL.
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The second one is only viewable by non-LDS at an FHC or affiliate library, so no help there.
The first one has only a "browse the film" link -- to the wrong film -- but I eventually found it: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSQT-1SQV-S?i=415&cc=3015626&cat=310651
15. Deceased: Johann Michael Mayer, geb. hier [born here] 4 June 1778, Wittwer [widower], residence Erligheim, Roman Catholic.
Parents: Mayer, Bernhard Conrad, Gerichtsverwandter [member of the judicial court] dahier [locally], and Elisabeth, born Maÿer(?)
Spouse: (deceased) Sabina Margareta born Ambach(??)
Age: 89 Jahr [years] 2 Monat [months]
Cause: Altersschwäche [weakness of old age]
Death: Erligheim, 3 August, Vormittags 10 [10 a.m.]
Burial: Erligheim, 5 August, Vormittags 10 [10 a.m.]
Family register: vol. I page 125.
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Julia,
Great information. Lots of Mayers??? Not sure what that is all about. Judicial Court - so he was a judge, unless there are other jobs that would be defined as part of the German Judicial Court.
Here is Anne Maria Uhren Baptism record. Hopefully this helps.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NX5J-5YG
Thanks so much. I know it is late. If you want to pick it up tomorrow, I totally understand.
Mike
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Mayer is a very common surname, yes. This applies anywhere that German was ever spoken -- which basically means nearly everywhere in Europe. (I have a few Mayer/Majer ancestors, in places that are now Slovakia.)
Áine was at an affiliate library and sent me the Anna Margaretha image.
1824 Nr. 7. Decima octava Aprilis hora sexta nata eademque die baptizata est Anna Margaretha, filia legitima Jacobi Mayer ovium custodis in Oberweiler et Margarethae Müsseler conjugum ex Oberweiler. Levantibus Anna Margaretha Müsseler ex Oberweiler et Joanne ?rethen agricola ex Oberweiler.
1824 No. 7. Born eighteenth April at six o'clock and baptized the same day, Anna Margaretha, legitimate daughter of Jacob Mayer shepherd in Oberweiler and of Margaretha Müsseler his wife of Oberweiler. Godparents Anna Margaretha Müsseler of Oberweiler and Joannes ?rethen farmer of Oberweiler.
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To answer your question about what the images on this forum are lacking, I saved the image you attached for Anna Margaretha to my computer and opened it with an image editor. This is as far as I can zoom in on it:
I did the same thing with the attachment that Áine sent me, and this is what I can get:
Now, granted, even the lower-resolution version from this forum is readable (because it's in Latin), but saving it and opening it "offline" is a hassle. Clicking a link to the image on FS is much easier, if such is available. Unfortunately, in this case, it isn't available, but we didn't know that yet at the start.
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I went through the hassle for Anna Maria. It's rather fuzzy, but again, luckily it's in Latin, and hence in proper Latin letters. (No, I don't consider That Dratted German Handwriting to be proper Latin letters. It's its own alphabet that one has to learn, just like learning to read Greek or Cyrillic.)
Anna Maria Uhren ex Biersdorf
10. Die 2. mensis Junii anni 1862 baptizata est Anna Maria Uhren filia legitima Joannis Uhren operarii et Annae Maier conjugum in Biersdorf commorantium, nata die 1. mensis ejusdem et anni hora quinta post meridiem. Patrinus fuit Jacob Jacobs, fil. leg. Henrici Jacobs, ferrarius. Matrina Anna Maria Burhel, filia legitima Antonii Burhel et Helenae Himpler, commorantes ambo in Biersdorf.
Anna Maria Uhren of Biersdorf
10. 2nd day of the month June of year 1862 there was baptized Anna Maria Uhren, legitimate daughter of Joannes Uhren laborer and of Anna Maier his wife residing in Biersdorf, born on the 1st day of the same month and year at five p.m. Godfather was Jacob Jacobs, leg. son of Henric Jacobs, smith. Godmother Anna Maria Burhel, legitimate daughter of Antonius Burhel and of Helena Himpler, both residing in Biersdorf.
(In this register, it'd be more useful to find one's couple as godparents!)
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Hi Julia and Aine,
This is great information. I sincerely appreciate everything you have done and especially your patience with me. I feel like I should do something for both of you. If you were local, I would treat you both to lunch. If there is anything I could do for you both, let me know.
Mike
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Hi Julia and Aine,
It's me again. I have a couple of more documents. One is the death certificate of Phillip Michael Umbach.
The other appears to be some resident listing.
He was another one of my GGGGG Grandfathers. Could you translate? Once again, occupation is one of key focuses. If this it too much, I understand. I have asked a lot already. Either way, thank you for everything you have done.
Mike
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Hello again Julia and Aine,
I hope you are both well. I was wondering if you could be so kind once again to help me with some translations. I am researching another German Great Great Grandparent. One is a baptism record of my Great Great Grandmother Catharina Jackelen. The other is a death certificate of her brother Johann. In both cases, the father, Vincenz Jackelen is mentioned. I was hoping these images are clear enough that you could translate his occupation. Is this something you could help me with? If not, that's ok. I can reach out to FamilySearch for their free consultation services. As I have said before, and I will repeat - you both have been so very kind to help me in the past, and I continue to say "Thanks!"
Have a great day,
Mike
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Michael, I'm sorry I missed your previous query (on Feb. 26), and of course I'd need to ask Áine's help to access the images for both that and today's query.
There are people who are much, much better at That Dratted Handwriting over in the Germany group: https://community.familysearch.org/en/group/88-germany-genealogy-research
If you do decide to repeat your questions there (or post a pointer to this thread), consider exploring Ancestry's "share link" feature. This allows some images to be shared outside the paywall (although, not being a subscriber myself, I don't know what limitations it has or how to generate the link).
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The Ancestry share link works pretty well, although it does not allow a non-subscriber to see more than the single page. And the zoom feature is somewhat limited.
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My understanding of Gerichtsverwandter is the position was not judge but juror in a municipal court (the lowest court). This is the kind of position small businessmen or land owners of acceptable character would be expected to serve in the community. Erligheim is an old, small village in the Neckar valley, so he likely was a landowner and grew grapes for wine.
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Hi "dontiknowyou",
Thank you for the translation on Gerichtsverwandter as being a juror in the municipal court and your further knowledge of what that position encompassed. Very insightful and interesting.
Hi Aine and Julia,
As for my questions that are still out there, from February 26th and March 9th, do you want to take a stab at translating or do you suggest I reach out to that shared link file?https://community.familysearch.org/en/group/88-germany-genealogy-research
Thanks
Mike
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Also, the fact that he is listed as Gerichtsverwandter, not as a member of a professional guild, almost certainly means he was a landowner, ie a farmer or grower, not a merchant or business owner. He almost certainly wasn't a farm laborer.
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Michael - as Julia has suggested, the German group is a better place for your questions.
Good luck!
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Thank you everyone for all your information, support and suggestions. You are all of great help. Have a wonderful day.
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