Identity is different for the same man?
A family have an Alan Lemuel and a Alan Samuel Henbest as their sons. But they are one and the same person. Both supposedly baptised on the 13th of April 1828. One record says that it was in Minstead, Hampshire, England and the other in St Neots,Cornwall, England. A distance of say a hundred miles apart. Both have a William Henbest as their father with both having his wife Sophia as their mother. Alan Lemuel Henbest has the designation LYVN-38J, and Alan Samuel Henbest has the designation L852-K3P. In the year 1828 to be in both alleged Baptismal locations it would be physically impossible.. One record is obviously wrong as is the forenames Ie in this case I believe that is is Alan Samuel Henbest. How to prove it is wrong?
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If you have a subscription to FMP or if your library offers access, the URL of the record is https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=TNA%2FRG4%2FBAP%2F169193
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@Bungey - looking at that family a little more in-depth, I believe that Eliza L852-KQG and Elisa G78Q-CYV are also 2 versions of the same person. The 2 children (Alan and Eliza) were baptized on the same day, by the same minister, at the same location.
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In older cursive, an upper case S and an upper case L are often confused.
Looking at the 2 PIDs, the same baptismal location, St Neot, Cornwall, is cited. IOW - it appears to be the same record.
I would want to look at the record - not an extract or transcription - to help confirm/refute/disambiguate.
Looking on FindMyPast, in the Record set England & Wales Non-Conformist Births And Baptisms, Alan Samuel Henbest, b 3 August 1826, was baptized 13 April 1828, in Cornwall.
I note that the record has been transcribed as Samuel, but it could easily be Lemuel. The church is described as "Bible Christian denomination" in Saint Neot and other Parishes in the County of Cornwall.
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Thank you so very much, if I might explain a little more my Quandry. Via my Henbest of Bramshaw Parish and and Knowlton of Minstead Parish connections.I am distantly related to to a man in America a WW Pearce.Who circa the year 2013 or 2014 was the person that circulated/ this information about Alan Lemuel and Eliza Jane Henbest being baptised on the 13th of April 1828 here on the Familysearch.org site. Back then it might have been the old IGI site. If I remember correctly it was about the year 2012 he invited me to be a Guest on his Henbest Family Tree on ancestry.com. And we swapped info, in which I learnt that he had been to England several times to holiday and carry out research on his Henbest and Knowlton branches of his family trees. I am still a guest on his ancestry family tree. I gained the impression that Warren had researched in both the Public Record Office in Kew in London, And the Hampshire County Archives in the Record Office in Winchester, Hampshire, England.
About a week ago I came across an entry here on Familysearch of a Lemuel Henbest but he had been attributed to the wrong Henbest parents. Still a William Henbest of Bramshaw but his wife was a Margaret Maury of Plaitford, not a Sophia Knowlton of Minstead. As I knew that this was William 1783 -1832 Henbest not 1793-1838 Henbest. I tried to resolve the problem of having the wrong Parents. And I changed his name from Lemuel Henbest to Alan Lemuel Henbest. Which I found on Warren's ancestry.com tree. I also found on his tree records that Warren must have found in his research that say that Alan Lemuel Henbest was born in his father's house in Minstead, Hampshire on the 3rd of August 1826 and baptised in that very same house on the 13th of April 1828 ie two years after his birth. And his father was a William Henbest whilst his mother was Sophia born to a John and Ann Knowlton of Minstead. And that William 1793-1838 Henbest was a Cordwainer. This record was a photo copy of the page of the actual Baptismal record. And was in the hand of the Minister who carried out the ceremony. A Wm Gibbs. Warren also had the same for Eliza Jane Henbest except she was born on the 3rd of March 1728 and baptised in Minstead on the 13th of April 1828 the same year she was born there.
I had already gone off to the St Neots in Cornwall ie, the England and Wales Non Conformist Baptismal Indexes 1588 -1977 ( 4 RG-8 ) or RG4-8 ) In which I think Warren had at some time added these two copies of the actual birth and Baptisms of Alan Lemuel and Eliza Jane Henbest. Plus another of a Pearce ancestor born in Southampton in the year 1827 with a copy of the St Neots Baptismal Book front page saying that it was circuit number 7, And that it the Book contained the baptismal records of All the Parishes in Cornwall. And yes the Minister was different. I do have a subscription to find My Past and as you say they do have Alan Lemuel Henbest as Alan Samuel Henbest. So I did think that it made more sense for it to be a transcribing error, and his name was Alan Samuel Henbest. ( I had never heard of the name Lemuel ) But on Googling it I find on this Wikikepier thing. That Lemuel is mentioned in the Bible in " Proverbs " and might be a pet name for King Solomon .
I am pretty certain that Alan Lemuel Henbest and Alan Samuel Henbest are one and the same person. And am baffled as to how he is recorded as being baptised in a place that must be at least 100 hundred miles away from where he was born and baptised.. And baffled as to where this record saying he was baptised in Cornwall comes from. Plus of course Eliza Jane Henbest I have no doubts that he was a Methodist of some persuasion.. My direct Henbest ancestor John 1788-1845 Henbest a first cousin of his father William 1793-1838 Henbest was a Primitive Methodist.
I note that Warren in his tree does not have an Alan Samuel Henbest only Alan Lemuel Henbest.
Allow me to say thanks to you once again for your help, Regards Cliff Edwards
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@Bungey I'm sorry I was apparently not clear.
Alan is not recorded as being baptized twice, in 2 locations. It's the same record attached to 2 profiles, from multiple transcriptions of the same event.
LYVN-38J Alan LEMUEL Henbest has only 1 source attached, for the baptism in St Neot.
L852-K3P Alan SAMUEL Henbest Has multiple sources attached, for the same baptism in St Neot.
Hope this helps.
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OK, so what we know:
On 13 April 1828, a probably-Methodist minister baptised a toddler son and an infant daughter of William Henbest and his wife Sophia Knowlton, somewhere in England, and someone (likely the minister himself) made a record of this event.
Said record survived to be preserved on microfilm, and the film has been indexed (at least) twice. Both times, the location was identified as St. Neot in Cornwall. One of the indexes read the son's name as Alan Lemuel, while the other index read it as Alan Samuel.
Both indexings of the record led to the creation of matching profiles on FamilySearch's Family Tree. These profiles should be combined (merged), but it would be good to first figure out exactly what the baptismal record actually says about the son's name and the location.
Questions to you, @Bungey:
- Where does the information come from about their location actually being Minstead, Hampshire? Where did you see this, or why do you believe it to be true?
- You imply that you've seen an image or photocopy of the baptismal record itself. Is this correct? If so, where was this document? Is it in a form or location that you could link to, or copy to Family Tree?
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Based on the film description of "RG-4 series no. 110," I believe that the record on FindMyPast is FamilySearch Film 590674, Item 11, which is not available to view from home. https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/35131
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The record set is also on Ancestry - https://www.ancestry.com/search/collections/2972/
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Aine and Julia, Sorry but Whilst I agree with your assessments of where the record is to be found and it does say St Neot, Cornwall. Can I ask if either of you have do access to ancestry.com or ancestry.co.uk. because if you do please go to search all records. and enter Alan Lemuel Henbest 1826-1845 place Bramshaw . The search button is to be found. It is in the top black horizontal bar after or near to Trees, and Home buttons. Click on search and up comes search all records. In there put Alan Lemuel Henbest place Bramshaw,Birth 1826 then click on search. Up will come some 4 or 5 reference records . Of Which the top record is the one that says he was baptised in St Neots in 1828. The next one down is the one that I found that says it is the England and Wales Non Conformist and Non Parochial Registers 1567-1936. Which if you click on it will tell you that it was in Minstead,Hampshire ( Not St Neots ). But the next 3 references underneath that record are the 3 individual Baptismal records one for Alan Lemuel one for his sister Eliza Jane , and the third is the Pearce Baptism in Southampton in 1827 . These I believe come under the heading of Members Photos and Scanned records or something like that.. And they are the 3 records that you wil find if you had clicked on England and Wales Non Conformist and Non Parochial Registers 1538-1936. Which if you do find these Scans they contradict the assertion that the Baptisms took place in St Neots, Cornwall.
Regards Cliff Edwards
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Áine sent me a screenshot from FMP showing the digitized microfilm image that has caused all of this confusion. It all seems to go back to the fact that Mr. Wm. Gibbs, minister, rode a rather wide circuit in his position with the Bible Christian church of Saint Neot, Cornwall: he was in Southampton in 1827, and in Hampshire in 1828. The three baptisms recorded in the image appear to be on pre-printed small pieces of paper, kind of like index cards, but based on later images from the film (as reported by Áine), they're probably actually from a three-per-page register-book that has been cut apart.
In any case, the image confirms that the Henbest family was never anywhere near Cornwall; only their minister reported to a church there. I'm not certain why both indexing projects assigned the location as St. Neot, Cornwall (matching the "Certificate or Statement to accompany Register Books", found on the left of the microfilm image), rather than the "Minsteed, Hampshire" or "Southampton" found in the actual entries. I suspect that the reason is that the place wasn't actually indexed, but assigned in pre- or post-processing to all entries from the film. It's probably accurate enough most of the time, as other images reportedly show events all in or around St. Neot, but the stray contributions from Minister Gibbs throw a wrench in the works.
As for what to do with the profiles in Family Tree: the two Alans need to be merged, keeping the Lemuel version, as it's clearly correct (although it's easy to see why someone unfamiliar with the existence of that obscure Biblical name would see Samuel - the L looks almost identical to the S in Son on the same line). Likewise, Eliza Jane and Elisa J should also be merged, keeping Eliza. The birth and christening places should all be corrected to Minstead, and the dates should be fixed to match the records. Finally, the source for all of this -- the image on FMP -- should be carefully cited on all of the affected profiles, and the source citations for the two indexes should have notes added about the errors and inaccuracies in the indexing.
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Julia would you be so kind as to thank Aine for all her kindness and the time and trouble that she has taken in this matter. I am going to tell you that in trying to get FMP to rectify/correct a record it is likely to end with nothing done. By this I know that they will come back with their stock answer that they got the information from X. And It is up to you ie me to contact X and get them to check their relevant source records. And if they are in error. Get X to then contact FMP to say that the record is wrong. Not by phone alone but in writing also, and that it needs to be changed to this new record. Mind FMP are fast enough to take my subscription, as are ancestry. Both have their good and bad points. Your explanation as to how the records got to be in the St Neots Registers is not impossible and more than likely. Although I believe that the records as actual records might be found physically as in the Public Record Office in the National Archives in Kew in London. Can I ask that if the Alan Lemuel and Alan Samuel Henbest are merged to Alan Lemuel Henbest. I was tempted to have a go myself. But know that I would have botched it. And made things ten times worse, so it needs some one that knows what they are doing. And allow me to also thank you for your kindness and your help.
Regards Cliff Edwards
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If the image (not just an index) is also on Ancestry, there should be a way to link to it that even non-subscribers (like me) can view. I don't know if FMP has such an option; it may. On Ancestry, I think they call it a "share link"? Something along those lines.
If such a link can be generated, then it should be the one used in the source citations on FamilySearch's Tree. The picture really is worth a thousand words here, explaining almost at a glance why some indexes have St. Neot when it was actually 135 miles away in Minstead.
But even if the image remains resolutely paywalled, I believe it is what should be cited as a source on all four profiles (Alan, Eliza, William, and Sophia). A careful and complete transcription, along with a description, would be almost as good as the picture -- and would be a good idea in any case, because text is digitally much lighter, more durable, and more portable than pixels.
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FMP does not have such an option, unfortunately. Yes, it's possible from Ancestry with a share link. Ancestry has the same images as on FMP.
I can't create the share link, since I don't currently have a World subscription to Ancestry. Only a subscriber can create a share link.
By the way, at least one of the index references to these baptism on FindMyPast comes from FamilySearch:
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I've reported both errors to FMP through their "report an error" button (now hidden, all alone, under the "More actions" button).
I received this automated reply:
Thank you
Thank you for reporting the error. We try to review all reported errors within 30 days, and will let you know by email whether we will make your requested changes.
That automated reply is different from what FMP displayed previously. They used to say 90 days, and they have NEVER sent me an email yay or nay. They have changed some records I submitted but not all.
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@Bungey, I've gone ahead and done the two merges, and created and attached the source citation. For now, I've used the FMP link that Áine gave earlier, but that can be replaced with an Ancestry share link by simply editing one of the instances. (There are currently six: I remembered that it also names the maternal grandparents, so I attached it to them, too.)
Don't worry overmuch about the incorrect location or name in the various indexes. If they're willing to fix it, that's good, but even if not, it's not like the index is the actual data. It's just a pointer to or finding aid for the actual data.
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Julia I think that I can send you a copy via that Share link thing in my ancestry.co.uk account. but I would need a valid email address to do so. I sent the records to myself via my email. So if you would like me to try is there an email that we can use?
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@Bungey - take a look - it's already attached.
BTW - you don't need an email address to share the link.
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Aine you live and learn, I have been with ancestry since 2005 I think, and I never knew that you could do this share link thing. Mind I am the kiss of death to emails which often go off into outer space never to be heard again. ancestry have organised with the Wiltshire County record office to have copies of the original Parish Registers that the office has in it's County Archives. Which is exciting in that often in the Photo Copied Records of the original records some times you can see more info that to be found in the Micro Fiche . Mind this service is only available to those who are paid up members of ancestry. And just recently I learnt that ancestry are going to also work with the Hampshire record Office in Winchester. To do the same with the Hampshire County Archives.This Covid thing has rather slowed things down though. You certainly got a different response from FMP than I did. I got the old 90 days routine. Which reminds me that I have forgotten what the problem was now. Regards Cliff Edwards
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The share link from Ancestry was not an option in 2005.
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Aine,in 2005 when I first started I knew hardly anything about family research, and today I can say that my knowledge is not that much greater. Back then on ancestry I came across a family tree of an Andrew Mac or Mc Donald. Who had a family tree that mentioned the Hamlet of Fritham within the Parish of Bramshaw. Now despite living only 15 miles away from Bramshaw which is on the outskirts of the New Forest. And visiting the New Forest many times. I had never heard of the Parish of Bramshaw. I had heard of Fritham as a family legend was that my family were from there. And my mother told me that as a young toddler my grandfather took my grandmother, my mother and myself there to visit some of his cousins . But only he my grandfather went in for a short while to visit. The House was down a very narrow lane with great big hedges each side, and Cows and donkeys and New Forest ponies wandering up and down the lane. That is all Mum could remember.
Back to Andrew Mac Donald and his tree. he and I had this person from Fritham in common. So I copied his tree and it contained things such as Gedcoms from the old IGI online site. I did not know then what a Gedcom was, never having heard of such a thing. But it resembled the branches of a family tree that I had seen in various other books. And the people in that tree /Gedcom thing came from Eling,Bramshaw, Minstead, the Wellows, . And some were Henbests. Which caught my attention, it is not a common surname, so I in my naivety thought it would not take me very long to finish them off. Here I am in 2022 and I still have not got them all pinned down. I am fairly sure that they were in Eling from before the Parish Registers were first ordered by Thomas Cromwell to be started in 1538. That they were likely to have been there for quite a few hundred years in Eling, Hampshire. And no one can tell where the original name came from or if it has any specific meaning,.
Bu the Gedcom thing was also useful in that there were other different families involved as well as the Henbests. Such as the Stormes of Eling of which with a little use of imaginative thinking I can trace my ancestry back to 1548 in the Eling baptismal records. And 1540 if I allow that the Elizabeth Storme baptised there in 1540 was the elder sister of my direct ancestor. The name has morphed into Starmes, and even into Starms. That is where the imaginative thinking has to be applied with these phonetic spellings of the names.
Regards Cliff Edwards. ps, at this moment I am working on a problem of phonetic spelling in Eling and Minstead. It is the surname of a Robert 1691-1735 Purcas of Eling the same as the Elizabeth 172 Purkess of Minstead who in Minstead in the yeat 1792 wed a William Knowlton?. Robert 1691-1735 Purcas of Eling wed a Susan 1704 Knowlton of Bramshaw in the year 1722. So was Elizabeth 1722 Purkess in affect a cousin to the William Knowlton she married in 1792? others here on ancestry have Robert 1691-1735 Purcas and his wife Susan 1704 Knowlton having a son Robert in 1732 Purcas. Who is supposed to have wed a Hannah Howell. And this is the father of Elizabeth Purkess of Minstead. ( I hate phonetic variations of names, and I hate the Elizabethan Secretarial handwriting that most Parish Registers are composed with, And I do not like Micro Fiche copies of those same Parish Records . they make my head ache.)
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As is the way of these things, there are always more Questions than answers to be found. Whilst looking for a possible coherent path from Susan 1704 -???? Knowlton of Bramshaw to the William Knolton who in May 1792 in Minstead wed an Elizabeth Purkess of Minstead or apparently of Minstead. I say this because according to others she the Elizabeth 1772 Purkess daughter of a Robert and Hannah Purkess nee Howell who wed in Minstead in the year 1762.Making their daughterElizabeth 1772 Purkess designated 2QJH- LV5 Christened on the 24th of May 1772. She apparently wed a George Scorey designated 2MGY-LNF of Minstead on the 26th of December 1791. But here is the Twist. apparently back in the year 2009 a Marilynbroomfield of Australia had filed some details about this Elizabeth 1772 Purkess of Minstead.But in 2011 Marilyn had obviously carried out more research on Elizabeth. Because in 2011 she makes a comment in a Discussion Titled " Who Is The Husband ? " In which she has two marriages of an Elizabeth Purkess, one on the 26/12/1791 to George Scorey. and another Elizabeth Purkess in May 1792 both weddings in Minstead but the second to a William Knowlton. And Marilyn is unsure which couple had the correct partners. Because she makes the comment that the Elizabeth that wed George Scorey was a Sojourner in Minstead.And implies that if true then she can not be the Elizabeth 1772 Purkess of Minstead. Who must be the Elizabeth Purkess that wed a William Knowlton/Knolton in Minstead in May 1792. Here if I may say, that in my copy of the Baptismal Registers of Hampshire Parishes Researched collated and produced by the Hampshire Genealogical Society. That in the small Village of Langley in the Parish of Fawley, Hampshire in the November of 1772 a Betsey Purkess daughter of a Charles and Rachael Purkess was baptised. and in the December of 1773 in the same place to the same parents another Betsey daughter of Charles and Rachael Purkess was baptised on the 29th of December 1773. I thought that Betsey was a nickname for Elizabeth, and Googled it. It evidently is one of some 85 nicknames of the forename Elizabeth. The Village of Langley in Fawley is say some 5 to 6 miles away to the east of Minstead. I contend that it is her the 1773 Elizabeth ( Betsey ) Purkess that is the Elizabeth a Sojourner Purkess that wed George Scorey on Boxing Day 1791 in Minstead. What I have not been able to see as of now is the actual Marriage record for the wedding that has the note on it Sojourner on it. But as Marilynbroomfield is Australian. I surmise that she could not get to see the actual record circa 2009 and 2011 In the Winchester Record Office in Hampshire, England. And must have then seen it via a copy in the Records of the Church of the Latter Day Saints of Jesus Christ. So a resolution is available for the conundrum that Marilyn posited in 2011. I also note that in the years 1014 and maybe 2016 others asked the same Question of " Who is the Husband ? ". I note that there is no name given for the enquirer just FAMILYSEARCH.
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