Both Mr & Mrs Gave Consent

Cheryl Hasychak

Hello, regarding [M9LF-YC7] #650228, consent for the groom to be married is given by Mr. & Mrs. Wm. Tiefensuer. I've listed the groom's father's given name and surname, and I've listed only the groom's mother's surname as Tiefensuer. Is this correct?

Also, if the mother of the bride "Jones" or groom "Jones" is listed as "Mrs. Thomas Jones" - I believe I would list only the bride or groom's mother's surname since no given name is listed. I can assume the father's name is Thomas Jones, but it would be incorrect to list this - correct? No assumptions should be made....

Thanks,

Cheryl

Melissa S Himes

When the formal usage of Mrs Wm Tiefensuer or Mrs Thomas Jones is used, we index the husband's given name as the wife's given name. If there is a prefix field then we would index the Mrs. So, you should index the given names for those women as Wm and Thomas.

If there is nothing on the record that separately indicates the father's name Thomas Jones, then you wouldn't index a father's name. It would have to say Mr and Mrs Thomas Jones, or father of the bride/groom, Thomas Jones for an entry to be made for him.

This falls under the last two bullet points of the General Indexing Guideline:

How to Index Individuals Whose Names Were Not Fully Recorded

• If a family member was referred to but the person's name was not given, do not index information for the individual. For example, if a document says, "James Brown and mother" or "James Brown and brothers," index only James Brown. Do not assume that the mother or brothers shared the same last name as James Brown, and do not create any additional records for the mother or brothers.
• If at least part of a name was given for an individual who should be indexed in this project, index the part of the name that was given.
• If the record provides the given names of a husband and wife followed by a single surname, such as "John and Mary Smith," index Smith in the Surname field for both records. However, if a document does not indicate a shared surname, such as "John Smith and Mary" or "John Smith and Mary, his wife," do not assume the wife's surname from the surname of the husband.
• If “Mrs” was used before a name typically used for males, such as in Mrs. Jason Jones, type Mrs in the Prefix field, if provided. In this example, type Jason in the Given Names field and Jones in the Surname field.
• If a Prefix field is not available, ignore the “Mrs,” and type the name in the corresponding name fields for the woman. For the example above, you would still type Jason in the Given Names field and Jones in the Surname field.

Cheryl Hasychak

Great, thanks for the info. I've had one instance, so far, where the bride was underage and "Mr and Mrs Thomas Jones" were listed as giving their consent. If I understand correctly, I would index the father as Thomas Jones and the mother as "Unknown Jones" - ?

barbaragailsmith1

Cheryl, in that case the mother would also be indexed as Thomas Jones and Mrs. would be put into the prefix field (if there's no prefix field then ignore the Mrs). And just so you know, when there is no name given, we wouldn't enter Unknown. We'd mark it <Blank>.

Paul W

Whilst this would be following project instructions (to show "Mrs Thomas Jones" as "Thomas Jones" when indexing this batch) this just shows how ludicrous some of the specific / generic project instructions really are! How could any serious researcher (experienced or inexperienced) be expected to find both Mr and Mrs Jones indexed with the same first name? The instructions even say to "type Mrs in the Prefix field, if provided" - so what of those projects where an option to add the prefix (Mrs) is not provided?

As I have expressed before, indexes are supposed to act as finding aids, not to cause confusion by trying to work out why a child had two parents (of different sex) with the same first name!

Someone must really undertake a serious examination of current project instructions, as the present ones are producing confusing and inaccurate results. (I have discussed elsewhere how banns and licence records continue to be falsely indexed as "marriages" and the problems that leads to.)

In case anyone should think this type of comment is being placed inappropriately in this section of "Community" (as has been suggested in the past), I would suggest mention the words at the top of the "Indexing" section: "Ask about making historical records searchable online".

This shows the section is not just for raising queries regarding current (ongoing) projects, but that it is a suitable place to suggest advice on better ways to index, in order to more easily make these "records searchable (once) online". Some of the current project instructions are not making a positive contribution to that end.

Melissa S Himes

Paul - we just follow the rules of indexing and that means that in the case of Mrs. Thomas Jones, she is indexed as:

Given Name: Thomas

Surname: Jones

Prefix: Mrs (the title is ignored if there is no prefix or titles/terms field).

This and the following have been the rules of indexing since I began the task in December 2013.

Additionally,

If the reference is Mr. Thomas Jones and his wife, Elizabeth, she is indexed as

Given Name: Elizabeth

Surname: <blank> (We do not assume that Elizabeth took her husband's surname.)

If the reference is something like Parents of the Groom, Thomas and Elizabeth Jones, she is indexed as

Given Name: Elizabeth

Surname: Jones

In the case of Mrs Thomas Jones and her husband, only the wife is indexed. The same would apply if the reference was Thomas Jones and his wife, only the husband is indexed. Records are not created for individuals who are not named in the record.

Cheryl Hasychak

Thank you all for the clarifications!