I could use some help with reading the name on this one please.

BrotherHarreld

The first name on the 4th image is hard to read. It is more clear on the signature line. I can read "Katharina" but there is something before Katharina and I'm not sure what it is. At the top of the image, the name looks like "EKatherina." Please help if you can.

MSL1-CQ5

Melissa S Himes

I see Für Katherina Penner in the Signature line. Since they are Germans, I think the German word Für which translates to For is signifying that her husband signed her name since his is signed below.

I would index her name as

Given name: E Katerina or Katherina

since the first incidence doesn't have the "h"

Melissa S Himes

I don't think one needs to send this to an expert in the language to understand the handwriting. But, anytime someone is uncomfortable with a batch, they can Return it for another indexer to pick up or share it as Brother Harreld has done.

I personally thought the handwriting was the same in the signature line and the husband's name at the bottom and different in the passenger line. We have no way of knowing if the passenger or a government agent filled out the form. Any time I have travelled it was my job to fill out my declaration forms, usually in flight or on a ship before seeing a customs officer. But, for our purposes of indexing, this does not matter. We don't need to think that hard. We just need to index what we see on the form and we need to use the "or" when there is a variation like the one for this passenger.

This falls under the General Indexing Guideline of

Alias Names:

If alias names were included on a document, or if an individual's name was listed with various spellings on the document, include all variants, separating each with the word Or. For example, if a name was written as "Georgios (George), George Broski, George Browzowski, or George Brzozowski," index the name fields as follows:

• Given Name: Georgios Or George
• Surname: Broski Or Browzowski Or Brzozowski

The E may have been an initial, or the name may have been heard and written as Ekaterina, a Greek and Russian version of Katherine. But, again, no worries because Soundex is just that great and the researcher can find their person and in most cases now edit the name if it is incorrect.

genthusiast

@BrotherHarreld I believe you are correct - the E appears to be for Eliz that is in the signature line. the L in Eliz has been 'wiped out' over time - or whatever the correct term is... I now think the E on the first line in front of Katerina is misleading in trying to decipher the writing in front of Katherina on the signature line - but it took me a long time to come to that conclusion.

@FGGM Thanks for pointing that out. That is correct - I don't know for certain what the letters in her first name are - the rest of the document doesn't seem to have faded to the point of not recognizing an L for example - but I believe there is an iz for that first name on the signature line - so my assumption was that the L is missing. The rest of the document is written in English - except for the stamps - so that is another reason this signature is unique and could be different - It might even be Eva or Ena/Einr ... but I sure thought that last letter was a z.

@Melissa S Himes Not knowing more about Passenger Declaration documents to Canada I believe I can safely assume the first line was written by the Canadian government official taking the declaration and the signature was written by the passenger. The official wrote an E why? What the official wrote down as an E might be because of what they heard her say and then her signature should be definitive on her name - she/husband signed her name. Would she abbreviate her first name if it were Elizabeth? I don't know if the husband would have written her signature - would he have had his own declaration document? The line about money in possession does state '[accompanying husband]'. The Wilhelm Pennser signature at the bottom DOES NOT seem to have the same characteristics as the Katherina Penner signature in my estimation. Note the difference in the trailing r in Für and Pennser of the Wilhelm signature - I would suppose if it were the same handwriter they would appear similar. @Melissa S Himes But I DO THINK YOU ARE CORRECT - I now think this signature says Für Katherina Penner - because the last letter is r - just like the r in Katherina and Penner - not z like I supposed earlier!

Also note the second image in this batch has another Penner Ukranian immigrant who had someone else sign für him - apparently a parent - because he is 2 years of age😊.

Someone more familiar with Ukrainian or in this case German signatures may have recognize this writing right off the bat. This is another example for why I am suggesting the idea to allow Indexers to Return Batch for more expertise Indexer queue. If this field were marked this way and the record sent to a queue for someone with more Ukranian/German handwriting expertise - then we might get a more accurate deciphering of this 'name' without the need to post this query?!

All of this deciphering goes into indexing a document and takes a significant amount of time - in this example just 1 name has taken quite a lot of sleuthing. Thank you to ALL Indexers!

Mirevo

The fourth image has a name there that may be challenging to interpret. In the Project Instructions under General Indexing Guidelines under Given names 3rd bullet point it reads: Names may have been written in more than 1 place in a document. Type the most complete version of the name in the indexing field. You may use the other information in the document such as the signature - to help you determine what the given name should be. Or you may use your best judgment.

It may be Eur Katharina Penner- the writer may have used the following U, which can be found in the international characters menu.

genthusiast

@Melissa S Himes Thanks for pointing out that I think too hard. I like to try to be thorough when I Index - do my best. I agree on this one I thought too hard - but it was because the first line recorded an E Katerina - and my expectation therefore was that the signature was an expansion on the E - which was my incorrect assumption.. In any case this exercise just demonstrates the variation of knowledge when there are mixed languages in a document - and thus my suggestion for Return Batch with a reason of 'needs more expertise'. Thanks!

Essentially Return Batch with reason options would be handling this question within the indexing app and not requiring to share it in the Community. I'll have to remember I can always default to Return Batch and I don't have to think too hard to Index - because if I Return Batch - then someone with more expertise will always be the one to pick it up and Index it at some point.

But sometimes I do like to think hard.

Ruth H_1

I see the name at the top as Ekaterina, which is a Russian form of the name Katherine. The signature (I agree that it looks like the husband Wilhelm has sigend on bealf of his wife) is Katharina. So, I suggest the name should be indexed as Ekaterina OR Katharina.

BrotherHarreld

Thank you all for your help on this😀. Every once in a while I need to put a batch on hold till the next day so I can pray about it. Your comments have been an answer to prayer.

I am going to submit the given name as "Ekaterina or Katharina."

LindaCP

Perfect BrotherHarreld!