Kars, Chakmak Russia
My husband's Grandparents and Great Grandparents immigrated to the United States in 1910 from Kars, Russia (now Kars Turkey). Only two of his grandmother's sisters came to the United States, the third stayed behind. I am looking for more information on what happened to her and the other siblings who died in Kars. I have a lot of information on the family members that immigrated, but I have come to a dead end when it comes to anything that happened in their hometown in Russia. Can anyone suggest where I might go to find more information (church records, cemetary info, etc) about this family when they lived in Russia? They were of the Molokan faith but I'm not sure if that is helpful. I recognize that the search criteria is a little tricky as it is technically Turkey now, but was part of the Russian Empire when they lived there. Please let me know if I need to move this question to another discussion group/board.
I'm specifically looking for information regarding the following individual:
Stella Kornoff b. ~1885 d. ~1910
f. George Kornoff (~1863-1910)
m. Mary Philip Arinina (~1853-1946)
最佳解答
-
Hello,
After googling for a few hours I found the following:
- the only name/date that could theoretically be anywhere close to the listed people:
https://journal.iea.ras.ru/archive/1990s/1995/no1/1995_1_53_Dolzhenko.pdf
Preface of the work in English:
" Russian Refugees in the Caucasus (Towards the history of Russian Diaspora in the region in 1830—1850).
The Russian population of the region began to form as an unintended result of the government's policies of deportation of the Dukhobors and Molokans, and of land allocation to retired soldiers. Another source of the population were runaway serfs and draftees, craftsmen on seasonal jobs and escaped convicts. Sectarians settled in villages of their own, with fugitives settling in their midst. Special agencies were set up to spot runaways, but, once found, the fugitives were commonly left where they were. From 1850 onward, this sort of spontaneous colonization came gradually to an end."
And quotes with my translation:
"В Восточной Армении одним из таких «беспокойных» селений являлось с. Никитино Александропольского уезда Эриванской губернии. Оно было основано в 1840 г. выходцами из с. Алгасово Моршанского уезда Тамбовской губернии"
In eastern Armenia, one of the "troublesome" settlements was Nikitino, Aleksandropol'skiy uezd, Erivan gubernia. It was founded in 1840 by people moving from Algasovo, Morshanskiy uezd, Tambov gubernia.
"В 1849 г. в селении одновременно проводились дознания по четырем делам: ... о бракосочетании несовершеннолетнего Филиппа Аринина ..."
In 1849 four criminal cases were investigated in the settlement [skipped the other three unrelated]... on the marriage of underage Philipp Arinin...
Reference is to "ЦГИА Армении. Ф. 65. Oп. 1. Д. 91. Л. 59." ЦГИА is Central State Historical Archive of Armenia which seems to have been renamed to National Archive of Armenia http://www.armarchives.am/en/content/101/ , but I am not 100% clear on this one. Rest is "fund number 65, register 1, file 91, sheet 59" I'm not very familiar with English archivist terminology, so not sure if I'm translating this correctly.
Considering the 1853 birth of Mary, Philipp may have been her father, but Nikitino is at least 200 km away from Chakmak and this could be just a coincidence, depending on how many Arinins were there between Kars/Armenian/Tambov Molokans at that time.
The small cluster of Arinins (20-odd people) in modern Armenia completely belongs to Fioletovo, Lori region judging by Armenian voter registration stats http://www.anun.am/l/9a8 Also Fioletovo, Lori region happens to be the modern name for Nikitino, Aleksandropol'skiy uezd, Russian emprie.
There seem to be mentions of "ревизские сказки" i.e. census records for Algasovo to be partially available in the archives, but you'd probably first want to be more certain that this place really is the part of your family history and have more names/dates available.
- Blagodarnoye and Chakmak (Çakmak in Turkish) are the same place, Blagodarnoye being the Russian name of the town
- It is highly unlikely that any official data from Chakmak is going to remain somewhere because 1) all Molokans left the town completely 2) their beliefs in the spoken word vs written one 3) the differences in religion to current population and 4) territory being repeatedly switched between various conflicting countries. Here is what remained of Molokan cemetery in Chakmak a few years ago for example: https://leesider.livejournal.com/81518.html
- Usually on various Molokan resources family names are Konov, Konnov, Kotov, Kornev, Chernov etc but no Kornov that I can find. It would be nice to know if you have any reference to the original Russian spelling of their last name, maybe naturalization changed more than standard "ov=off". English wiki on Molokans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molokan suggests that this is often an issue.
- Same VGD forum you were referred to earlier also has separate Molokans topic https://forum.vgd.ru/232/29983/ that lists Arinin as one of last names of Molokan citizens of Tiflis (modern Tbilisi, Georgia) in 1907-1911.
Other assorted info:
Most of searches for Molokan people history point to http://molokans.ru/, they have a list of many documents in various archives http://molokans.ru/bibliography/documents regarding Molokan people, but only three of those refer to Kars region in the title.
Alexey Petrovich Arinin, Molokan activist lived in Nalchik, Russia in 1996, his letter on religious subject and address is quoted in http://molokanin.ru/old/kn/pdf/Rahmanina_MOLOKANE.pdf
https://vk.com/molokans (requires registration) is a VK (Russian social network) group called "Molokans" and from 200 odd people there are a couple there with Arinin last name.
http://molokanin.ru/old/a/pdf/laws_1803_1872.pdf scanned texts of 1800s decrees issued by the Russian state regarding Molokans
Some Molokan resources in English - http://www.molokane.org/
Doukhobor info and resources in English - http://www.doukhobor.org/
General comments on the names:
George could be a localization of Георгий, Григорий, Егор or even Юрий.
Mary could be Мария, Марина and Маша (informal)
Stella would be a *very* unusual name for a Russian girl in 1800s, especially in a religious family. I would suspect this to again be a conversion of something like Стефанида (Stephanida) informal Stesha or some foreign relations which seems to be unlikely for Molokans.
hope some of this helps a bit,
Igor.
2
個答案
-
@jillclayville we are so glad you are part of our community! Thanks for being patient as we wait for a response to come from a volunteer with the needed skill set. Be sure to review the links at the top of this page for more great resources. Most of the time, it is best to ask a question - do this by selecting the arrow to the right of new discussion. Asking a question allows you to accept the answer or let us know you would like more help.
Enjoy today ! Cindy Jarvis
0 -
Thanks, Cindy. It shows this discussion as a question so I'm hoping I did that right. I will definitely check out the resources above and hope there is someone out there who can help.
1 -
Hi @jillclayville!
Do you know if they came from the city of Kars or the Kars Oblast (an oblast is kind of like a state or province). Knowing the exact place will be helpful for us in locating records. In the meantime, you may find
this forum on VGD useful - it's all about research in Kars and Kars Oblast. The site is in Russian, but if you are using the Google Chrome browser, simply right click anywhere on the page and choose the option Translate to English. If you would like to ask a question or make a post on the forum, you will need to create an account (it's free to create though!).
2 -
Ellie,
Thank you so much for the link to the site. I have seen Chakmak listed on the naturalization records for one of the brothers, and Blagodarnoye (sp?) listed as the city they came from on the ship manifest. So I am guessing they are from the Kars Oblast. Does this help narrow it down at all?
1 -
Igor,
You have given me so much to look through and some very interesting insights!
Looking back at the border crossing document from Mexico to the US, it does say that Mary Philip Arinina was born in Nekitino! I do believe that the Philip Arinin you found in the legal document would be her father because I think it was customary for them to marry very young-- Mary's daughter Tatiana was married at 16 years old.
The second line in this picture is the name of the town where Mary Arinina's husband, George Karnoff (spelled Karnouchoff on the border crossing document), was born. Does it look familiar to you? Can you help me with the writing? Kars is listed as where their grandson who was traveling with them was born.
I am a little saddened to read that there really isn't much of the cemetery left in Kars, but I'm not completely surprised. How grateful I am that you confirmed that Blagodarnoye and Chakmak are the same place!
0 -
Igor,
You gave me much to research last night! I spent hours pouring over the information you listed above.
The 1908 border crossing document for Mary, George, and grandson Alexy and it states that she was born in Nikitino! It wasn't until now that the name of that town meant anything, but I do think we are on the right track! When you wrote about the criminal case of Philip Arinin, I believe this to be Mary's father because Mary arranged for her daughter (my husband's grandmother) to be married at 16 as was the custom of the time.
Do you recognize or Can you help me translate the name of the town George Kornoff was born in from the record below? Mary was from Nikitino, George was from a town beginning with 'W' and their grandson was from Kars. Looking for more information on the name of the town starting with 'W'. From this immigration record it records their last name Kornoff as spelled some variation of KARNOUCHOFF
I am sad to hear that there is not much left of the records in Cakmak, Kars, Turkey. I believe that Stella (which I understand was probably the Americanized name given to her later) may have been married which is perhaps why she would have stayed behind when everyone else immigrated to the US. Or that she would have immigrated under a different last name. I'm just trying to understand if she had her own family but not sure where else I could look.
Thank you for confirming that Blagodarnoye and Cakmak are the same place-- that makes sense why one is listed in one place and the other in another.
0 -
Igor,
You gave me much to research last night! I spent hours pouring over the information you listed above.
The 1908 border crossing document for Mary, George, and grandson Alexy and it states that she was born in Nikitino! It wasn't until now that the name of that town meant anything, but I do think we are on the right track! When you wrote about the criminal case of Philip Arinin, I believe this to be Mary's father because Mary arranged for her daughter (my husband's grandmother) to be married at 16 as was the custom of the time.
Do you recognize or Can you help me translate the name of the town George Kornoff was born in from the record below? Mary was from Nikitino, George was from a town beginning with 'W' and their grandson was from Kars. Looking for more information on the name of the town starting with 'W'. From this immigration record it records their last name Kornoff as spelled some variation of KARNOUCHOFF
I am sad to hear that there is not much left of the records in Cakmak, Kars, Turkey. I believe that Stella (which I understand was probably the Americanized name given to her later) may have been married which is perhaps why she would have stayed behind when everyone else immigrated to the US. Or that she would have immigrated under a different last name. I'm just trying to understand if she had her own family but not sure where else I could look.
Thank you for confirming that Blagodarnoye and Cakmak are the same place-- that makes sense why one is listed in one place and the other in another.
0 -
Igor,
You gave me much to research last night! I spent hours pouring over the information you listed above.
The 1908 border crossing document for Mary, George, and grandson Alexy and it states that she was born in Nikitino! It wasn't until now that the name of that town meant anything, but I do think we are on the right track! When you wrote about the criminal case of Philip Arinin, I believe this to be Mary's father because Mary arranged for her daughter (my husband's grandmother) to be married at 16 as was the custom of the time.
Do you recognize or Can you help me translate the name of the town George Kornoff was born in from the record below? Mary was from Nikitino, George was from a town beginning with 'W' and their grandson was from Kars. Looking for more information on the name of the town starting with 'W'. From this immigration record it records their last name Kornoff as spelled some variation of KARNOUCHOFF
I am sad to hear that there is not much left of the records in Cakmak, Kars, Turkey. I believe that Stella (which I understand was probably the Americanized name given to her later) may have been married which is perhaps why she would have stayed behind when everyone else immigrated to the US. Or that she would have immigrated under a different last name. I'm just trying to understand if she had her own family but not sure where else I could look.
Thank you for confirming that Blagodarnoye and Cakmak are the same place-- that makes sense why one is listed in one place and the other in another.
0 -
Igor,
You gave me much to research last night! I spent hours pouring over the information you listed above.
The 1908 border crossing document for Mary, George, and grandson Alexy and it states that she was born in Nikitino! It wasn't until now that the name of that town meant anything, but I do think we are on the right track! When you wrote about the criminal case of Philip Arinin, I believe this to be Mary's father because Mary arranged for her daughter (my husband's grandmother) to be married at 16 as was the custom of the time.
Do you recognize or Can you help me translate the name of the town George Kornoff was born in from the record below? Mary was from Nikitino, George was from a town beginning with 'W' and their grandson was from Kars. Looking for more information on the name of the town starting with 'W'. From this immigration record it records their last name Kornoff as spelled some variation of KARNOUCHOFF
I am sad to hear that there is not much left of the records in Cakmak, Kars, Turkey. I believe that Stella (which I understand was probably the Americanized name given to her later) may have been married which is perhaps why she would have stayed behind when everyone else immigrated to the US. Or that she would have immigrated under a different last name. I'm just trying to understand if she had her own family but not sure where else I could look.
Thank you for confirming that Blagodarnoye and Cakmak are the same place-- that makes sense why one is listed in one place and the other in another.
0 -
Hello,
sorry, didn't see your reply earlier, looks like yet another case of post not being let through by automatic filters cause it's too long. Karnauchoff is a much better variation, in Russian it would be Карнаухов or Корноухов. Same document also lists him as Gregore, meaning most likely he is Григорий (Grigoriy). W place is Vorontsovka (modern Tashir, Armenia) spelled Woroncofka in the document. In Russian this is Воронцовка (Ташир) and was one of the Molokan settlements founded in 1846 as per https://www.armmuseum.ru/news-blog/2018/10/17/-2molokan
I can see Карнаухов in list of Molokan last names list but no references to Georgiy or other specific people.
thanks,
Igor.
0 -
There are Russian language tax lists for Nikitino (Никитино) for 1886 and 1852 available online. -- https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/%C4%96rivan_Gubernia_Taxation
Similar records for Воронцовка (Vorontsovka) for 1852 are available here: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSMZ-H3YB-N?i=110&cat=684853 (Microfilm 1915270, item 1, pg. 510-547, images 111-148)
1
