"Roe, Wroe, & Row" families in Lancashire
I think I have about 3 families all mixed together, but wanted some input from someone who might know for sure. The christening sources are showing from St. Mary, Oldham; Cathedral, Manchester; Newton Heath; and Failsworth. Could these possibly all be the same family. It makes it look like they moved around a lot. The years are from 1757-1777. The mothers are all listed as just Hannah and the fathers are listed as James or Jas... with various spellings for the last name.
Thanks for any help you can give.
Charlie Daniels
Respostas
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Well, I've tried to help but nearly drowned in detail myself!
Charlie
According to Google maps, Failsworth and Oldham are about 4 miles apart, while the Cathedral (which was only a Collegiate Church at this time, but it's easier to write "Cathedral"!) is about another 4m in the other direction from Failsworth. For various reasons, a huge number of the marriages in the Manchester area took place in the "Cathedral".
I don't know what records are in FamilySearch for the Manchester area - when I was researching stuff in this area, I used Ancestry because they do have most of the churches. I would also add that Lancashire OPC on http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/ have a lot of transcripts - but not all. And the FamilySearch Wiki on Lancashire has a huge amount of stuff saying what can be found where (start with https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Lancashire_Parishes )
What I would do is start by looking for possible marriages. Note that your baptisms are horribly close to the 1754 dividing line for marriages. Before that, marriage records in Parish Registers tend to be one-liners, usually in the same registers as baptisms and burials. After that, they are much more detailed and in their own registers. (Bishops' Transcripts for post-1754 can be either one-liner summaries or detailed but are usually on the same sheet as baptisms and burials.)
The next thing to be aware of is how Ancestry split the images (if you're using it). They have collections for Manchester "Cathedral", collections for Manchester Diocese excluding the Cathedral, and "the rest of" Lancashire. Those collections contain the Parish Registers, but the Bishops' Transcript copies seem to be usually found in "the rest of" Lancashire collections, regardless of where the church was.
To find these *if* you use Ancestry, you should go to the Ancestry Card Catalogue and first search on Lancashire and then on Manchester in the title field. I found these that might contain data for you:
Pre-1754 marriages:
Manchester, England, Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, 1573-1812 (Cathedral)
Manchester, England, Church of England Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, 1541-1812
Lancashire, England, Church of England Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, 1538-1812
Post-1754 marriages:
Manchester, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1930 (Cathedral)
Manchester, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1930
Lancashire, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1936
Searching for likely marriages in each of those 6, I found just 3:
1) Name: James Roy
Marriage Date: 29 Jan 1753
Parish: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Spouse's name: Hannah Pearson
Register Type: Bishops Transcripts
This is actually James Royley in the "Cathedral" parish register of the same date, so can probably be discounted.
2) Name: James Wroe
Gender: Male
Event Type: Marriage
Event Date: 5 May 1756
Parish: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Spouse: Hannah (it's Hannah Thomas in the image)
Register Type: Bishop's Transcript
I can't see this in the parish register for the "Cathedral" because the guys filming it seem to have turned over two pages at once!! And it's not on LancashireOPC either, so I have no idea of the detail.
3) Name: James Wroe
Marriage Date: 16 Apr 1757
Parish: Manchester, St Mary, St Denys and St George (i.e. the "Cathedral")
Spouse's name: Hannah Wolstenholme
James is a weaver from Moston, Hannah is from Failsworth.
So my working assumption would be that there are two James and Hannah marriages. Looking in LancashireOPC (because that's all one collection but is incomplete), that seems to have a series of baptisms at Oldham from August 1757 to Jan 1769. James is a weaver throughout, resident in various places - Failsworth, Lowerhouse (there is a Lower House in Oldham according to Google) and at least one Lane that I guess may be in Oldham. It looks to me like there is no reason not to believe this is one family. And surely James Wroe and Hannah Wolstenholme must be this family because of the Failsworth reference?
LancsOPC also has a 1777 Thomas Wroe at the "Cathedral" in LancsOPC. That's nearly 9y after the Oldham baptisms - I'd be inclined to presume this belongs to the other James and Hannah.
In Ancestry's "Manchester, England, Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, 1573-1812 (Cathedral)" I found a number of other James & Hannah baptisms. For instance:
Hannah Wroe 28 Jan 1759
Compare that to the one at Oldham (from Lancashire OPC):
6 May 1759, Joseph Roe
Now, assuming that someone is baptised reasonably close to their birth, then that can't be the same family. So again, it's saying that we have at least two families of the same name.
There are other James & Hannah baptisms - as you probably know. E.g. there are BTs from Newton chapel in Ancestry's "Lancashire, England, Church of England Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, 1538-1812". For instance, I saw James Wroe on
20 Sep 1772, where his parents lived at Failsworth.
To do the baptism analysis properly, if you use Ancestry, you need to look at the 3 collections:
Manchester, England, Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, 1573-1812 (Cathedral)
Manchester, England, Church of England Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, 1541-1812
Lancashire, England, Church of England Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, 1538-1812
and look for the baptisms in there. Some of those will include what I've already highlighted above. Then you can do things like compare the dates like I did for the 2 1759 baptisms, to decide that those 2 families must be separate. If the Newton baptisms follow on the end of the Oldham baptisms, with no overlap, then, given that we only have the 2 marriages, that would suggest it's the same family.
Good luck - I'm afraid that you have to do the hard work comparing one set of results to another to see if it's one family or two. It might be three if there's an incomer, of course, but the fact that there's only two marriages means I'd start with that idea and try to break it.
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Hello Charlie,
My answer would be qualified "yes"; there's an absolutely compelling case for those entries found in Newton Heath (All saints), Failsworth, Oldham and Manchester Cathedral could very likely be one and the same family. Questions to ask would be: 1) Was the father's occupation the same? 2) Was there any other family/families with the same names of each family member in this area in these or other nearby church registers? 3) Did any of the parents leave a will? 4) Have you searched all websites with Lancashire church register entries--including, Ancestry, FamilySearch, Findmypast.co.uk, Lancashire OPC to help you determine an answer to number 3 above?
Note: Failsworth was a chapelry (a smaller ecclesiastical unit of the Church of England--sometimes called a chapel of ease, a district church or ecclesiastical parish with parish/chapel), designated in 1844 and a church built by and with registers commencing from 1845. Since 1845 is far too late for the time period in which you are searching (1757-1777), you'll note that Newton All Saints (established in about 1655) parochial chapelry--actually is the chapel that fits the time frame in which you are searching.
Should your search in Newton All Saints not produce the desired results, then, here are two resources you can use to help you determine the names of some of the other closely associated churches located just nearby to All Saints:
2) maps.familysearch.org: type in Newton All Saints [Note: the pop-up says that Newton All Saints' parish registers began in 1716 but that's incorrect; the Family History Library has them for the year starting 1655.]
If you still cannot locate the baptism, here is a "Comprehensive List of All Parishes & Chapelries Attached to Manchester Our Lady & St Denys Cathedral". This List contains all of the names of the chapelries which were attached to the mother or ancient parish boundary--the largest one in all of England--with just over 160 attached chapels! You can print this List out to help you as you search each chapelry parish register for the baptism[s] you seek. Especially consider using this List with the "Historical Maps", mentioned in no.2 above.
Hope this helps!
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Thank you so much for your reply. Sorry I am so slow to acknowlege your help. You have given me some great insight.
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Phil, me again. The third link you listed does not work. Any ideas?
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Not Phil but I think you need https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/A_Comprehensive_List_of_All_Pre-1851_Manchester_Parishes_and_Chapelries - the link above had 2 http prefixes, somehow.
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PS - I bookmarked it for my own use as well!
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Thank you for your keen observation and noticing the mistake.
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Wow, you have really spent a lot of time trying to help me. Things went crazy at my house and I am just now able to get back to this family. Thank you for your time and all the ideas and suggestions. I truly appreciate your help
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