Y DNA - enquiry
Hello all,
I hope someone knowledgeable in Y Chromosome genetics can help me as I have a question. I recently recieved my results for a 100x whole geneome DNA test from Nebula Genomics and transferred my CRAM files to YFull for Y Analysis. My haplogroup is J2 and the subclade is J-Y139780. I took the information in the two most recent common ancestors that YFull returned, Heinrich Roth and Joseph Metzmeier and began researching them and their descendants, which I am still doing. These two men were from Germany and previously, my family has believed their ancestry to be Italian. For the record, my dad said he did not know about any german background nor about these two men and as far as he and his siblings are aware neither did their parents. My dad's parents came over from Italy and were born before the World War. Due to Y DNA being passed from father to son, if I understand things properly, these two men are both related directly and are grandfather and grandson, and in relation to me would be a 4-7 times great grandfather.
Currently I am researching Joseph Metzmeier and have researched his children up to the 1850s which is very close to the time when my dad's father was reborn in Italy. Although the research shows that his children were in Baden, Germany and showed no sign of moving to Italy nor any connection with Italy.When I was talking with a family member about this they suggested that maybe the direct connection is not with these two men but earlier in the genetic tree. The problem with this is, the last time Italy appears in my genetic tree is 11,500 years ago. I find it hard to believe that ancestors from 11,500 years ago somehow resulted in my dad's father without these two men passing Y material down and that these two german men are cousins or siblings of sorts. If so would I not have had a different subclade? This sub clade is strictly in Germany when I look on YFull's map? My theory is that I am directly descended from these two German men, who are related to each other, in a great-grandparent great grand child manner, and that I somehow am not related to my dad's father and would therefore also not be Italian. At least not along the paternal line. Especially as I see no way in the span of 1 generation, maybe 2 that the children of these two German men could have up and gone to Italy, produced a child that produced my dad's father and somehow no one in his family knew about this including my dad's father.
I am pasting some of the test information for Heinrich Roth and Joseph Metzmeier below to provide information that may help. If more information is needed please let me know and I will provide it. I hope someone can provide guidance on this.
Also below I have pasted my entire phylogenetic tree as reported from YFull from root to the sub clade to which I was assigned with the variants that were detected in my DNA for the subclade to which I was assigned.
Lastly, I apologize in advance for the very long and rather complicated seeming query all to answer a wee small question and thank you in advance for taking the time to answer.
Much Metta,
Masaki
Most distant ancestor
Heinrich Roth ( Anglicized: Rhoads )
Approximate Rebirth - redeath date: 1686-1747
Test Type
Big Y
TMRCA ( ybp )
1700 ( 1100-2400 )
MRCA branch
J-Y139780
Country of origin
Germany
Shared SNPs (46)
BY50316, BY50322, FT153776, Y139780, Y139781, Y139782, Y139783, Y139784, Y139788, Y139790, Y139794, Y139798, Y139803, Y139804, Y139805, Y139806, Y139810, Y139811, Y139812, Y139815, Y139819, Y139823, Y139826, Y139827, Y139828, Y139829, Y145991, Y145993, Y146003, Y139791, Y139792, Y139800, Y139813, Y139814, Y139816, Y139818, Y139820, Y139822, Y146000, Y139796, Y139797, Y139821, Y139824, ZS8848, Y263049, BY50315
Assumed Shared SNPs (4)
Y306198, FT297377/Y202078, Z10433, Y125739
All Shared Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms ( SNP )
50
Compared Short Tandem Repeats ( STR )
474
Differences in Compared Short Tandem Repeats ( STR )
22
Genetic Distance
0.046
Terminal Hg
J-139793
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph Metzmeier
Approximate Rebirth - redeath date:
1792-?
Test Type
Big Y
TMRCA ( ybp )
1700 ( 1100-2400 )
MRCA branch
J-Y139780
Shared SNPs (45)
BY50316, BY50322, Y139780, Y139781, Y139782, Y139783, Y139784, Y139788, Y139790, Y139794, Y139798, Y139803, Y139804, Y139805, Y139806, Y139810, Y139811, Y139812, Y139815, Y139819, Y139823, Y139826, Y139827, Y139828, Y139829, Y145993, Y146003, Y139791, Y139792, Y139800, Y139813, Y139814, Y139816, Y139818, Y139820, Y139822, Y146000, Y306198, Y139796, Y139797, Y139821, Y139824, ZS8848, Y263049, BY50315
Assumed shared SNPs (4)
Y306198, FT297377/Y202078, Z10433, Y125739
All Shared Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms ( SNP ) s
50
Compared Short Tandem Repeats ( STR ) s
431
Differences in Compared Short Tandem Repeats ( STR ) s
21
Genetic Distance
0.049
Terminal Hg
J-139793
____________________________________________________________________________________________
Y Chromosome Phylogenetic tree report
J-Y139780
YFull YTree v10.03.0 at 16 May 2022
ROOT
A1
A1b
BT
GHIJK
HIJK
IJK
IJ
J
J2
J-L26
J-PF5087
J-PF5160
J-PF5197
J-PF5172
J-Z7314
J-PF5169
J-FGC16096
J-Z40068
J-Y139780
Y139803 Y139821 Y139788 Y139828 Y139829 ZS8848 Y139814 Y139783 Y139782 BY50316 Y139820 Y139805 Y139812 Y139810 Y139804 Y139815 Y139794 Y139818 Y306198 Y139811 Y145993 Y146000 Y139824 Y139781 Y125739 Y139796 Y139784 Y139827 Y139813 Y139800 BY50322 Y139790 Y139816 Y145991 Y139826 Y139792 FT153776 Y139819 Y139806 Y139780 Y139798 Y139822 Y146003 Y139823 Y139791 Y139797
Respostas
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Masaki, Those two men are your closest Y-DNA matches at YFull, but you are not descended from them, nor are they closely related to you. If you click on the name of your haplogroup you will be taken to the YFull Y-Tree. You are listed as haplogroup J-Y139780*, and the other two men are in a different haplogroup J-Y139793. If you look to the right of each haplogroup you will see TMRCA (Time to the Most Recent Common Ancestor). The TMRCA for the two men in haplogroup J-Y139793 is 1100 years before present. This means that based on their Y-DNA results their common ancestor was born about 1100 years ago. The common ancestor of all three of you is estimated as 1750 years before present. You will not be able to find a common ancestor between yourself and these other men because you are very distantly related.
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Jonas,
Thank you for clarifying this. an additional question that hopefully you can help me with. My haplogroup J-Y139780* is listed on YFull as being from Germany. Does this mean that I am descended from someone in Germany? J-Y139793 which is listed as a child haplogroup of J-Y139780 is also from Germany.
In addition I have compared my STR markers to Heinrich Roth and Franz Joseph Metzmaier and seem to match. I have uploaded the STR markers comparison for you to see to help. The haplogroup tree is included in the image for you to see if it helps. J-Y139780 and J-Y139793 both share Germany as a country of origin.
In addition, while distant, since this is the Y chromosome and it is passed down from father to son, plus both Heinich Roth, Franz Joseph Metzmaier and me while maybe different points on the phylogenetic branch do share the J-Y139780 SNP would my connection to these men most likely be direct or a cousin. I do not quite understand how a cousin could be possible given I share a decent amount of my Y chromosome with them. Finally, if I am not directly descended from them am I accurate in deducing that my haplogroup shows I am directly descended from a man in Germany while maybe not these two men?
Much metta and thanks I know this is a lot of information I am throwing at you and appreciate your help.
Masaki
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If I am reading the chart on Y-Full correctly, it seems that the J-Y139780 is a son of the J-Y139793 haplogroup. That means it is possible that you descend from the men you found in Y-Full or it is possible that they are just cousins.
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Mr. Tolman,
Thank you for your help and clarification, it is much appreciated.
Much metta,
Masaki
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