Seeking more help with (mostly) translation

LuciaV

Hi, I'm here again, getting lost in (not only) translation. I started looking more into my Maczkovics side of the family. Would appreciate your help with some of these:

• Victor Ambrosius Maczkovics, born in 1881 (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-LBRX-XCD?i=133&cc=1554443&cat=1376505). Now the note says he died on Jun 17 1883. I checked and yes, found a Victor Maczkovics entry, baby boy dying at the age of 1,5 (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-8BRG-C9F?i=134&cc=1554443&cat=1376505 - at the bottom). Now my question. What does it say about Stephanus, under Victor's name? Now I know filius means "son". But what about the word before it? Because as far as I know, Stephanus was Victor's grandpa, the father of his dad Franciscus. Or there was also Stephanus, Victor's uncle (the uncle is not yet added into the family tree here, since I'm mostly working on ancestry). Why is this person noted with baby Victor's passing and not his father? With the death of Victor's younger brother Josephus, both his parents are noted (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-8BRG-CYJ?i=51&wc=9PQS-SP1%3A107654301%2C130332801%2C115945701%2C143520001&cc=1554443)
• Antonia Müller, this ancestor is very mysterious for me. Here is her death record (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-LBRG-CX6?from=lynx1UIV8&treeref=LJ54-SVZ&i=180), saying she died in 1893 at the age of 40, wife of Franciscus Maczkovics. Little question, can someone confirm to me she died of pneumonia? That's what google translate told me.
• It also says Antonia lived at Nagy Tapolcsány 77 which yes, it's listed at all the kid's baptism records and based on the census of 1869, the Maczkovics family lived there. But... There is the village of "Pereszlény" mentioned as well. Does this mean she came from this place? Should be a village called Preseľany today, close to Nagy Tapolcsány. There is another "Pereszlény" in Slovakia, a bit more south but I checked their records, no mention of the name Müller there. So I focused on the village close to the town. Didn't find Antonia Müller being baptised there, tho I found some other, younger Müller kids. So I checked the 1869 census. Found one Müller family here: (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-899K-4JXM?i=136&wc=QZ77-1HD%3A323642401%2C324199401&cc=1986782), no Antonia tho. Could someone help translating this two pages for me?
• Through some clicking around, I found the Müllers had children in other places too and eventually I managed to find Antonia here (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9BT4-9ZFP?i=242&cc=1554443&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQVNC-BNQK) in Ludanice (the name of the parents match the rest of the kids and also her brothers were born here, those who are noted in the census). It makes her birth year 1849 tho. That would make her almost 5 years older than what her death record tells us. Which okay, errors like this happen in old records. But there is another thing that kinda makes me doubt.
• The thing is... In the 1869 census (I'm not linking it here, it's filled out in Slovak, I can understand it), Franciscus Maczkovics (Antonia's husband) is listed in his parents house but it says he is doing his apprenticeship in the town of Prievidza. I noted that. I checked all the Prievidza marriage records, I didn't find their marriage and unfortunately the Nagy Tapolcsány marriage records only go to 1868 for some reason. That means I cannot locate their marriage record thus I cannot verify the names of Antonia's parents not her approximate age.
• Also... The first child of this couple I could find was Victor, b. 1881. That would make Antonia 32 years old first time mother. I would say that is kinda unusual. What is your opinion? Am I not searching well enough?
• And another question... Where is Antonia during the 1869 census if she's not living with her parents? I was working with a theory that maybe she was married before Franciscus but sadly I cannot verify this without locating their marriage record, which could tell me whether she was a widow or not.
• Any advice on where to move next?

Julia Szent-Györgyi

(Now I know who to ask when I come upon an impenetrable-to-me Wall of Slovak.) :-)

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184. Born 7th, baptized 9th December 1881.

Child: Victor Ambrosius, male, legitimate

Parents: Franciscus Maczkovics, Antonia Müller, tailor, R Cath

Residence: Nagy Tapolcsány 77

Godparents: Stephanus Svoltner, Elisabetha Müller, blacksmith, R Cath

Officiant: Franciscus Orliczky assistant parson

Observations: died 17 June 1883

103. 17th June 1883

Deceased: Victor Maczkovics, son of Stephanus, fancy-coat-tailor [causapearius = szűrszabó]

Origin and residence: Nagy Tapolcsány

male, age 1 1/2 years

Cause: phthisis [progressive weakness, usually caused by tuberculosis]

Burial: 18th June, 6 o'clock, Theodorus Jelinak, assistant parson

195. 16th November

Deceased: Josephus Maczkovics, son of Franciscus, shoemaker, and of Antonia Müller

Origin and residence: Nagytapolcsány

male, age 3 days

Cause: weakness

Burial: common cemetery, 17th November, Colomannus Fehérváry, assistant parson, Nagytapolcsány

204. 1893 26th November

Deceased: Antonia Maczkovics born A. Müller wife of Franciscus, tailor

Place of origin Pereszlény [Nyitrapereszlény = Preseľany], residence Nagy Tapolcsány number 77

female, age 40

Cause: pneumonia [the clerk was getting really sloppy about what language he was writing in this register]

Last rites: provided

Burial: Nagy Tapolcsány old cemetery, 27 Novemb., Paulus Jantanszky(?) assistant parson.

---

Following the occupations:

The baptism of Antonius in 1884 has his father as Franciscus, causapiarius (which the indexers somehow made into "Panda" for the mother's surname, for some reason skipping right past the Müller that's Right There)

Maria 1885 also has Franciscus, causapiarius

ditto Julianna Cornelia, 1887

ditto Josephus, 1890

My conclusion is that both children's death records have errors: Victor's gets dad's name wrong, while Joseph's gets dad's occupation wrong.

I'm going to deal with the census and the Müllers in a separate reply.

Julia Szent-Györgyi

I. 1. András Müller, male, born 1817, R.Cath., married, occupation smith, mode of employment master, profit-renter, birthplace Falkas-Dovorán, Nyitra county [later Farkasudvar, now Dvorany nad Nitrou, part of Nyitraludány = Ludanice], residency local, present over one month continuously, can read and write

2. Erzsébet his wife, female, 1820, R.Cath., married, occupation: -, mode of employment: does the housework, born Appony [= Oponice], Nyitra county, local, present, can read but not write

3. András's daughter Erzsébet, absent over one month continuously, in service in Nyitra Apáti [either Vicsápapáti = Výčapy-Opatovce or Bajmóczapáti = Opatovce nad Nitrou]

4. András's son János, male, 1852, R.Cath., single, occupation: assistant, employment: smith, born Pereszlény, Nyitra county, local, present, can read and write

5. András's son Josef, male, 1854, R.Cath., single, ditto [ditto everything from his brother János]

6. András's daughter Anna, female, 1856, R.Cath., single, -, -, ditto [Pereszlény], local, present, can read but not write

7. András's daughter Berti, female, 1859, R.Cath., single, -, -, ditto [Pereszlény], local, present, cannot read or write

8. András's son Mihály, male, 1865, R.Cath., single, -, -, ditto, local, present, cannot read or write

9. András's daughter Mária, female, 1869, R.Cath., single, -, -, ditto, local, present, cannot read or write

[The rest is totals by gender of things like marital status, residency, and literacy.]

Previous page: the single residence was on the ground floor, consisting of 2 or 3 rooms [can't decipher the numeral], 1 pantry/closet, and a kitchen; it also had a smithy, a shed, and a stall/stable.

Next page: the family owned one Hungarian-breed cow [as opposed to Swiss-breed] and three pigs.

The indexed baptisms from Pereszlény have the births of the younger kids:

Anna 7 Jul 1856

Bertha 16 Aug 1859

Aloysius 25 Feb 1864 (died 27 Feb 1864)

Michael 21 Jul 1865

Maria 5 Dec 1869

As you noted, the older kids were baptized in Alsóludány:

Antonia 6 Jan 1849

Joannes 8 May 1851

Joseph 7 Jun 1853

Their residence is Falkas-Dovorán, i.e. Dad's birthplace per the census.

Ah! The earliest kids are in Appony (Mom's birthplace per the census):

Maria 24 Sep 1841

Francziska Paulina 25 Jan 1843

Erzsébet 31 Jan 1845

Maria 31 Jan 1845

Maria 16 Dec 1846

Unfortunately the baptisms for Appony only have images online up to 1827, and the marriages and deaths are only available up to 1842, so there's no easy way to check what happened to any of these girls. Well, besides the first two Marias, who clearly died in infancy. (Yep, there's a Maria Miller daughter of Andreas, age 7 months, who died on 9 April 1842: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-LBTQ-WZ6?i=684&cc=1554443&cat=1224373.)

András and Erzsébet were married in 1840 in Appony, but it's a singularly uninformative marriage register (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9BTQ-3BQ?i=590&cc=1554443&cat=1224373): it only lists the names of groom, bride, and witnesses -- no parents, no ages, not even birthplaces.

A thought: what if the census got the name wrong of the daughter who was away in service? There is an Erzsébet born in 1845, but she's apparently a twin, and her twin definitely died. Perhaps you can ask the Family History Library's Lookup Service for her baptismal record, to see if it is actually a twin birth, or just one child with two names. (The index entry says it's image 34 on film 5223461: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVN8-Y8HQ.) One reason this occurred to me is that being in service would handily explain Antonia's late start on childbearing. Also, a simple name switch would explain why she's not listed with her family, if she wasn't married yet. Of course, the other possibility is that she was married, but it was someplace that hasn't been indexed on FS, or her husband was impotent.... It would be good to figure out which Apáti was meant. Maybe there's a marriage there that could shed some light. (Bajmóczapáti was recorded in Bajmócz (Bojnice); Vicsápapáti had an RC church locally.)

LuciaV

Thanks for the reply! I'm more than willing to help with any Slovak or Czech translations since you are my go-to Hungarian help ;)

The "fancy-coat tailor" occupation makes so much sense because in the census Franciscus' apprenticeship is noted as "halenár" which is like an old term for fancy shirts thingies maker in Slovak :D

About Victor, thanks for confirming that the name was probably just a mix-up.

Also yes, Antonia Panda was leaving me dumbfounded... Müller was RIGHT there, but thankfully the search system was still recommending this record to me when looking for Antonia Müller's children.

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Ah! I think I saw Appony (Oponice) somewhere in my research but for some reason didn't follow that lead. So there was bunch more children.

After reading your reply, I did a bit of google search and visited one of the Slovak genealogy websites that has a bunch of info on all Slovak villages (https://www.cisarik.com/index.html, if you're interested, it's also in English) and I'm leaning towards Výčapy-Opatovce (Vicsápapáti) because it says, the Opatovce part was called Nyitraapáthi during the census times. It's also closer to Ludanice/Preseľany and all those mentioned places. The other place was know as Apathi only. I'll try to look into their records.

I will also write to the Library Look Up service. Will report my findings! :D Maybe I'll ask them to check the NagyTapolcsány marriage records for Franciscus/Antonia marriage as well if it's not too much of a bother and if they have them available. They were able to look for some records for me without me knowing the exact date and film number so I'll keep my fingers crossed.

LuciaV

While waiting for the Library Look Up Service, I decided to go one generation up with the Müllers. Found both parents (I think) based on the 1869 census birth places and while Erzsebeth's (Elizabeth - 26 Aug 1823) is clear and readable (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-8BTQ-3CK?i=101&wc=9PQ3-HZ6%3A107654301%2C130332801%2C161610101%2C950230001&cc=1554443&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQVN8-YMC6), there's no way I can read what is happening with Andreas (22 Oct 1815) here: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-8BTQ-3CK?i=101&wc=9PQ3-HZ6%3A107654301%2C130332801%2C161610101%2C950230001&cc=1554443&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQVN8-YMC6 and I don't want to only rely on the indexing

Julia Szent-Györgyi

Both of your links are for Elizabeth (I swear, it's the forum software that does that somehow, all "helpfully", because it has happened to me), but I found Andreas:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-8BT4-9CPC?i=397&cc=1554443&cat=1105933

1815 October

22. Andreas, Jos. Miller, Theres. Schumik, faber, FDov., Andr. & Sophia Bolenszky, FDov.

I'm not certain of a lot of that, especially the mother's and godparents' surnames.

For whatever it's worth, I skimmed through the Ludány marriages from 1832 to 1841 and the deaths from 1815 to 1835 (which are both film 5223317 item 2) and did not see an Andreas Muller/Miller.

LuciaV

Oh strange! I checked the links after I posted and I'd swear it was for Andreas.

But yes, you posted the correct one. So hard to read but thanks for trying!

You already found the marriage record for me, they (Andreas and Elisabeth) got married in Appony in 1840 and I think Andreas probably died in Preseľany, since that's where they lived in 1869. I haven't looked into the Preseľany records yet but I will later today when I'm home

EDIT: Oh! You probably were checking Ludány records to see whether it could be a different Andreas, right?

Julia Szent-Györgyi

"You probably were checking Ludány records to see whether it could be a different Andreas, right?" Yep, exactly. The deaths could probably use another set of eyes, as they get tedious and confusing at the same time. (They're inconsistent in format: sometimes they're surname first, other times the surname is buried in the middle somewhere, and always there's the chance of an intrusive date [starting with "Anno", which looks exactly like "Anna"] or some other non-name word throwing you off.)