Help Reading and Translating Bapt Record From Kirchensall

Sherlock.Holmes

Hallo,

I found this record for an ancestor, Johann Andreas.

Can you please decipher the "Eltern" description and what is under the kinder's name.

I can read "Ursula Magdalena", but usually the father is cited first. Later I see "Johann", but who is he?

What is Johann Andreas' surname?

Thank you for taking the time to help me with this.

Ulrich Neitzel

@Sherlock.Holmes

Johann Andreas was born unehelich, illegitimate, therefore only his mother is named first.

The text in the Eltern column is the following:

Ursula Magdalena, [?] Heinrich Rü?ners von Neufelß condoniertes und wieder von Ihm in ___ recipirtes Eheweib gibt zum Vatter des Kinds an Johann Conrad Sigelin, ledigen Stands von Mangoldsall.

The translation is a bit difficult; I am not sure about the exact meaning of condoniertes and recipirtes, which seem to be judicial Latin terms. This is my interpretation:

Ursula Magdalena, wife of Heinrich Rü?ner from Neufels, pardoned? and reaccepted? in marriage?, names as father of the child Johann Conrad Sigelin, unmarried status, from Mangoldsall.

So it seems that the married Ursula had the child with another man.

Sherlock.Holmes

Thank you, Ulrich Neitzel! I was looking from the child's birth and backwards to find the marriage with Singelin. I guess I won't find it.

At least I have both parent's names. Sometimes, I see only the mother's name. I think I found her surname, too.

After your help, the story gets more interesting.

The son Johann Andreas was born Jul 1747 and died in 1823. The 1823 death record does show his father was Johann Conrad Sigelin von Mangoldsall and mother was Ursula Magdalena, so his surname taken was from his biological father. The death record does cite the correct birth date for Johann Andreas.

After looking through the Kirchensall marriage records, I found the record, below, dated in Feb 1747. The groom's name is similar to what you interpreted, Heinrich Rü?ners, which can be R(K?)üchners. And, I see Neufelß cited that you mentioned in your transcription.

The marriage of Küchners with Ursula Magdalena was between conception and birth, yet the child had the Sigelin surname.

What do you think — could that sequence of events have happened where she was conceived by a man other than her husband-to-be, then marry, then birth the illegitimate child who was given the biological father's surname?

And, can you kindly decipher this marriage record? Thank you!

Ulrich Neitzel

@Sherlock.Holmes

I agree that the name of Ursula Magdalena's husband is probably Küchner or Kühner ( the ending -s is just the genitive case marker). Your interpretation of the sequence of events seems logical from the available records. The question is if Johann Heinrich Kühner/Küchner was aware of his bride's four months' pregnancy at marriage. The note in the birth record of Johann Andreas seems to suggest that this was not the case, but that he "pardoned" his now wife.

Here my transcription of the marriage record:

d. 21ten Febr. sind praevia trivia Proclamatiae copuliert worden Johann Heinrich Kü(c)hner, Johann Friedrich Kü(c)hners, vulgo des Schauf_rizens?. z_ bürgerln Einwohners zu Neufelß ehlicher ledl Sohn und Ursula Magdalena, weyl. Johann Leonhard Helvens, g[ewesenen]. b[ürgerlichen]. E[inwohners]. zu Mangoldsall nachgel[assene]. eheliche Lendl. modu? Johann Albrecht Knöllers, auch b[ürgerlichen]. E{inwohners]. allda, Stief Tochter.

NB. weil die Braut und Hochzeitleute wegen des ? überall ganz außerordentl. angelaufenen? Gewäßers nit hirher in die Kirche zur Copulation kommen konnten, so bin auf einem mir zugeführtem Pferd nach Mangoldsall geritten und hab die Copulation daselbst im Muttershaus verrichtet. 

Text Nupt. Ruth III, v. 1 "Und Naomi sprach, meine Tochter"

Translation:

On 21 February [1747], after threefold reading of the banns have been married: Johann Heinrich Kü(c)hner, legitimate unmarried son of Johann Friedrich Kü(c)hner, also known as Schauf_rizens?, citizen of Neufels, and Ursula Magdalena, surviving legitimate unmarried daughter of the late Johann Leonhard Helven, former citizen of Mangoldsall, step-daughter of Johann Albrecht Knöller, also citizen there.

Note. Because the bride and the wedding party could not come to the church here because of the everywhere quite extraordinarily high risen waters I rode on a horse brought to me to Mangoldsall and performed the marriage there in the mother's home. 

Wedding text: Ruth ch. 3, verse 1 "And Naomi said, my daughter"

JohnsonGreg

Seems unusual for the Pastor to select Wedding text about a young woman in a difficult situation seeking shelter in a marriage to an older man. It suggests to me that maybe her condition was known and the marriage was perhaps less romantic and more pragmatic.