Information on Cecilia Dupaye.
On my greatgrandfathers birth record it list Cecilia Dupaye as mother. He was born in 1852 born to Godfroid Imer and her. I do know they were not married at time of birth, but did stay together and came to America in 1855. She lists Brussels as place of birth, but I can find no info there. she was born between 1832 and 1835. I would love to find a birth record or even a marriage for them. My Greatgrandfather was born in Nieuwpoort, Belgium. Any help would be appreciated
Ellen
Respostas
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Brussels can be problematic because there is Brussels proper and Brussels capital-region, know as Brussel hoofdstedelijk gewest.But this consists out of 19! municipality's and has a division for the
french speaking community and Flemish speaking community.It is no part of Flanders; but is an enclave
into it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels
It would make a substantial difference in the search, to know if she was Flemish or,Godfroid Imer was Flemish;and moreover ,your Greatgrandfather was Flemish and born in nieuwpoort,so he probably mastered the language.Given the time frame-it would be more than guessing to say that he was bilingual.
Most Belgians are .
Does your greatgrandfather has a name?... and where did he go in America?(importance of immigration records)
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Adrien,
This what I know. Godfroid Imer was born in Liege, Belgium. He was in the military when in Niewpoort. My great grandfather, Carlus ( Charles) Imer came to US in 1855, so about 3yrs old. They lived in Connecticut, and then finally New York. As for what Language they spoke. The only thing I know is that Charles' sister could speak fluent French, and told her children her mother Cecilia Dupaye taught her.
Also Cecilia and Godfroid (Victor) Imer put on census records as born in Belgium. Then in 1900 after Victor dies Cecilia starts putting France. So I have no idea where this woman is really from.
Thank you for getting back so quickly
Ellen
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A quick unfiltered search returned that one of the children of Celia, was registered as
Carolus Amatus(Charles Imer) Dupaye.This is from a website. The site mentions Charles imer
as born in Nieuwpoort on 4 August 1852, and one other child as born at sea, in 1854! during the voyage?
But given the fact that Nieuwpoort is mentioned and Charles-Carlus(latin) Karel(Flemish) apparently is the one that you claim to be Carlus--3 yrs old, we are on the right track.It is the same family.And it becomes obvious that Cecilia was still present in Nieuwpoort around that year.
Nieuwpoort had a military marine basis, and a landcomponent.It is very close to the French border.It is also very close to Zeebrugge, a big harbor with departures to the new world.
Antwerp was primary for departing.But Zeebrugge would be obvious.
So French speaking also,...
I took a snip from you"Victor dies Cecilia starts putting France. So I have no idea where this woman is really from."... did you mean to say that she was putting forward France as birthplace?
Anyway , we have some more food on the plate now.
feel free to add anything.I will try to find something.
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Yes after Victor her husband dies, she is putting France as birthplace. It was always Belgium before that.
The Charles-Carlus Imer is my great grandfather, his brother Gustav was born as sea. And that is the only reason I know about what year they may have come to America.
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Lots of work are done already.I will try to avoid browsing catalogue's that are reviewed previously.
But it will help to narrow the field down.
I did not find Dupaye, not in Belgium nor in Holland,not even in France.I think you are aware of most of this.....not sure you have the translation.
Dupaye--
page 740 of 927 Belgie West -Vlaanderen civil registration,1582-1910
from initial finding here
After consulting this page and the chatbox interaction between Erudita/Catusco
here
https://www.italiangenealogy.com/forum/off-topic/43565?start=30
and
etc...etc
So as you were aware of most of this , i took the liberty of translating the birth
certificate
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Imer Carolus Amatus Constantinus.
In the year 1852 5th of August at Nine before noon,before us,Henrikus Van der Beke,
Mayor,Officer of the burgerstand from the municipality of Nieuwpoort in West-Flanders,
did appear officer Godefroi Viktor Amatus Imer, aged , 29 years,Born at Luik (Liege)
officer at the regiment Jagers te voet (walking hunters)living in this town(Nieuwpoort).wich showed us a child of the manly gender,at yesterday nine o'clock before noon,born in the Oostendestraat nr ( Zeggehuis )-(?)At wich child he declares to give the chosen name of Carolus Amatus Constantinus, making himself known to be the father the child and to have conceived it with Cecilia Dupaye aged 20
born in Brufsel, living in this town, (Nieuwpoort),This showing up and declaring is done in the presence of Carolus Vanhaute , aged 43 years,born in Thielt(Tielt) and Philippus Quentin aged 86 years,schoolteacher, born in Diksmuide both living here;
Made without delay this deed,from comparant and the witnesses,read it out aloud and are co-signing with te mayor and the Parents.
(no signature of the mother) (this is common.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The spelling of Dupaye catches the eye. it is not spelled, Du pays, Dupuis, Dupaynes,
or Dupae but very oddly Dupaijne!- Du Pijne is a medieval very rare name.But given the way of
writing down ((Brufsel!) in stead of Brussels or Bruxelles, wich is also basically a medieval spellingform used by people with a background of theism, or Dutch nationality and Dutch writing.The Dutch rulers wrote Brufsel , the French or Flemish
almost never did.
Also the naming Carolus Amatus is basically Dutch, altough it can be used here.
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Thank you for explaining her last name. So where do you suggest my search should be directed?
Ellen
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Well, that will be very challenging to answer.The first and most difficult track to run , is the historical one.
The date of her birth and place of birth places her in a very difficult time-bracket.
In that period the Flemisch and French part of the Netherlands broke away from the Dutch rulers and Kingdom of Willem1 van Oranje..;but also tried to separate from one another.This is known as the Belgian
revolution.The main events of the proces of independence center around 1830-1839; see the link and
the period on that page under Ten Day's war and Treaty of London.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_Revolution
So the person of interest is born during the makeshift and guerilla battles in the medieval streets of Brussels and Antwerp , and the decorum changed on a day to day basis.This affects the censusrecords very badly.The reason i give this info , is that i'm currently browsing some catalogue's from around that period in Brussels, Brussels Hoofdstedelijk gewest(the 19 municipality's),Brussel proper, and i'm checking the Dutch archives(what is left of it for the period), made during their last intermittant years of ruling in Brussel/Flanders.Until now it is very dissapointing,and i have to alter the names gradually to find the derivatives and changes in spelling.
But gradually it dawnes at me, her name is basically a spelling mistake , made due to the French speaking(native from Liege) officer serving military time in the young independent Flanders at Nieuwpoort, having to declare the child in Dutch!, wich he did not master.Not only he was brought op and raised in Luik,so is native French speaker, also the language used in the Army , in all commanding structures was French ,only, until about 1958!, and he was a Captain-so as a high ranking officer could not use Dutch, and probably did not master it(given the declaration in Dutch at Nieuwpoort).
In that days professional officers needed permission from the military governmet to get married,and their choice was always checked out before.It is unlikely that a French speaking officer would get approval for a marriage during the days of streetfights, at the formation of the republic, serving time in Nieuwpoort wich was not his hometown or base.Officers until today, just as policeofficers and military personnel , never serve in their native towns or Provinces.
It becomes obvious to understand that they were not married,and he had to recognise the child as his on the Birthcertificate.It does not mention it , but the words used are chosen so,..that it is clear.
I also contacted the State repository in Brugge,were the birthcertificate is kept,but their answer says nothing about the certificate.Basically they say it is indexed by volunteers, and what is availiable on the web is the index, ad the given fact that the volunteer making the cards decides what will be taken over and what not.But it should be in the repository in Brugge.(most beautiful city of Belgium)..anyway, i will give it another shot this evening.
Adrie
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The history of the region is so interesting. I would have never know about the military aspect of the language barrier.
Thank you so much for taking the time to help me in this. I live in the US and do not speak French or Dutch, and being so far away from Belgium makes it a task to discover information. I am at the mercy of what is online.
Ellen
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Hi Ellen.
Vlaams Brabant or Brabant flamand, consiting of 65(!) municipality's , see the page-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flemish_Brabant
Waals Brabant or Walloon Brabant consiting of one distrikt and 27 municipalities, see the page-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walloon_Brabant
Both are only seperate founded in 1995, but were joined before that.
They incapsulate Brussels itself as an enclave that is embedded fully.After that, as a subdivision
we have the 'rand van Brussel',called Brussels edge or rim; basically the border between the enclave and Brabant itself.
The way all of this is divided is du to language arrangements , and comes on top of
the other historical divisions.
The Rim==> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_Periphery
Language facilities
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipalities_with_language_facilities
So as 'Cecile Duprez' indicates that place of birth is Brussel Brabant , we have to understand that
65 plus 27 needs to be added to 19 plus one.To find her we have to browse all these municipality's records.
Because the 10 year indice below does not specify further.It is likely that she was born in Brussel capital,
Brussel proper itself , the rim, or Waals Brabant due to her French mastering.Most people here are bilingual.
my guess, Walloon Brabant
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-GR28-DY7?i=315&cc=1482191&cat=147201
Page 1 and index
https://www.familysearch.org/search/film/004985257?cc=1482191&cat=147201
Duprez Cecile 1832, Brussel Brabant, 10 year indice tables of birth
tienjarige tafels op geboorten,1833_1842 a_k 626700 4985257
page 316 from 462. The Dup's start to browse at page 314 to 317.
So you need page 316
Duprez Cecile 1832 right corner below.Easy to misread it as Dupaye,but the same goes for some other Dup's.
Apparently the family registered 7 births in a 10 year period, Tree have no date of birth , but an abbrevation?-maybe stillbirths?
The reasons to search for Duprez.
I found some Dupaye's in old archives , and the Belgian national archive,but added all up, no more than 7!, that
as well as the name and the persons seem to pop in and out of existence during the period 1600-1950, as if they did not exist
previously,and as if they were endlings without family ties.Possibly they could be immigrants from Europe somewhere,but i also
did search for them in Luxemburg, France, Netherland...and the results are so lean , it is suspicious.Possible explanation is that the name is a very rare deviating branch of the root.
The root should be either Du Pijne,(only mentioned 8 times on the web),Dupain, Dupay, Dupuis,or preferably 'Duprez'wich is the most
common root.There are some nice other forms on pag 314 to 317.
It is too suspicious that Cecilia Dupaye is only mentioned on the birthcertificate in Brugge;as if she did not exsist prior to that,
or does not have parents or family with the same name.....wich is weird almost.
Another reason not to hunt for Dupaye, is the fact that the officer was from Liege(French-speaking)and declared the child in Flemish
in Nieuwpoort.There they are surely only Flemish speaking,it is very likely that Dupaye is a fonetic interpretation of Duprez,
in Flemish ears it sounds alike it.We also have to consider that a big part of the population was still analphabetic.
Adrie
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Hi Adrien
This is the link to the name you gave me. It is 1835 which I think is to late for her..I do think she was born around 1832.
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Hi Ellen,You are correct, the date was a bit arguable on the first catalogus with thje 10 yrs indices.I can read it better on the dokument you found, and 181 is present, so undisputable.
Back to the drawingboard? feel like browsing history?
Should be 1832 Brussels.But something is a bit suspicious, all births seem to be at 'Onze Heure du matin' or at 'Dix heure du matin',but i only checked tree pages in the book about 1832,and the pages in the dokument you offered.
strange-- All births at 11 or 10 hr in the morning only?...surprising.
Adrien.
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I found some old pictures of the 'Jagers te voet'- the regiment of Imer Godfried, (Flemish spelling), on the Abl forum:General Belgian Army(non-official); I do know ;or i did know the moderator very well(Paddy)
as WW1 and WW2 along with the interbellum is my field of specialisation...But my last contact with him dates back to 2010 , and he was not very well mentally, the last time i spoke to him.
I have a fantastic acces to Cegesoma files thanks to him, and i can reach very deep into their database.
I need to ask his advice before i grasp for more entry;lets hope he's ok.I cannot go around him.
http://www.ablhistoryforum.be/viewtopic.php?t=1014
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Oh wow, very interesting. I always wanted to send away for Godefroid Imer's military records. He and his brother Laurent are listed on the Belgian Military site. But I wasn't sure what was in them. Now maybe there could be something about his marriage in them. If he needed permission to do so. Thank you for the pic of the uniforms. I would love to find Godefroid (Victor) picture.
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Its not very likely to find a picture.The first pictures you can expect , will be beyond1952, photography was in its early days.But i found some good pictures today, maybe i'll post them on Sunday.Tomorrow there is a funeral in the family.
Maybe i'll browse some Brussels in the vening.
Adrie
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Adrien
So sorry to hear about the death in your family. My condolences .
Can you tell me what a carabininers is.? Its listed as what Victor Imer was in the military
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The correct term is carabinier, carbinier or karabinier.
The difference with fuseliers is that the carabinier's use a shorter rifle, for city fights, forest fights, fights in buildings,riots.
http://www.carabiniers.be/carabiniers/geschiedenis.html
https://www.chasseurs-a-pied-belges.be/ ( they have a museum)
http://charleroipaysnoir.blogspot.com/2017/04/la-caserne-caporal-tresignies.html
http://www.maisondusouvenir.be/3_chasseurs_pied.php
http://www.abbl.be/charleroi-caserne-kaserne/
The last has good pictures.But none of them go back to 1850, or maybe one.A daguerrotypie from a graveyard.
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Hi Ellen.
It took all my day yesterday, to attend the funeral, and today we have to que and line-up for theEuropean Parliament/Flemish Parliament and the chamber of representatives.Tomorrow my son is coming over from Dublin, for 3 days to do some work here and in Holland.
But i did some work(not much)
I found a nice forum with some old worshippers of the Carabiniers/Grenadiers regiment , altough it is
dissolved and annihilated, they still have some old vet's.They even have gatherings and years events;on
one of their events they made a boattrip near my house here , In Zelzate, on the canal Ghent -Terneuzen.
(see pict on their page boat Ghent);anyway, they seem to have lots of pictures from old times, altough i did not browse their content.
http://blog.seniorennet.be/karabiniers/
Could be a source of content.About the other links i did send, i will translate some of their content ,when i have some time.I kept the links.The museum they have in Charleroi seems interesting.But small.
We also have a very big museum about Belgian Warfare in Brussel's Jubelpark, that is a massive one, and i have visited previously long ago, probably they will have the uniforms in their stock.I can check it out this upcoming summer,..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Museum_of_the_Armed_Forces_and_Military_History
Furthermore i made a list of the municipality's of the rim around Brussels, the edge or Vlaamse rand.
This is the whole border around the brussels enclave called Vlaams Brabant, but only the ones bordering Brussels
Hoeilaart
St Genesius-Rode
Linkebeek
Drogenbos
St Pieters Leeuw
Dilbeek
Wemmel
Grimbergen
Vilvoorde
Machelen
Zaventem
Kraainem
Zemst
Tervuren
Overijsse
All bilingual, but emphasis on the Flemish language.
possibly this would be the good target of interest.Zaventem and St pieters-Leeuw are checked for 1832-NO HITS--YOU CAN STRIKE THAT OUT
Adrien
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Thank you for the links. And thank you for the list of places to search. I have my home work for today.
Ellen
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I used the familySearch catalog link to the right under links to refine the terms wit a keyword
So first i opened the link
then entered place for example Linkebeek ;
and then add keyword in the available prompt.
I used it on all the places i sent to you , in the rim, wit the keyword 'dupaye'-
All returned null result.
This does not say the term Dupaye is not in it.
It says that the term is not in an indexed file.
I also tried Belgium-keyword Dupaye and Brussels proper and Brussels hoofdstedelijk gewest.
Nothing resulted from it.Still we cannot exclude the catalogs.
This evening i will try this with Waals brabant/municipality's
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After some additional browsing in the Nieuwpoort catalogs it suddenly dawned at me,that we have to take in consideration that Dupaye sometimes is spelled as Depaye.
I'm not sure that you checked all the availiable pedigree's?
https://www.familysearch.org/search/tree/results?count=20&query=%2Bsurname%3Adupaye~
Already on the first link it becomes obvious that it is in use--,and the first 3/4 part of the page is promising to investigate,...all other are showing a massive amount of different spellings and branching out to America.If you feel the urge, it would be interesting for you to list-up the names from te Belgian Dup's
and the location and dates.Many locations are Belgian btw , like Mons, Namur, Arlon...
And you can do it without a language barrier.(visually)
The other side of the coin, if Dupaye=Depaye; all will start all over to search.The whole cloud atlas!
I found some other details.
The regiment of the Chasseurs a pied(French term)or Jagers te voet(Flemish) came to Nieuwpoort/Dixmuide along the river the Ijzer or (Yser) because it was a very important bridge-head
giving acces to France a bit to the left.The river could be used to inundate the land and the polders, so they had to make sure that France would not invade or penetrate via the Yser.The first regiments were
placed in camps and tents in Diksmuide, after some time also in Nieuwpoort.But there were other regiments stationed here also, and the Chasseurs were a minor garrison.The garrison your officer Imer was in, was a medical -infirmerie, a lesses field hospital,to support the troops mediacally.The main battle's however were not here.They also served civilian casualties, births and deaths, treatment and
general help.Later on the camps expanded to the seaside of Koksijde and Nieuwpoort beach itself.
The reason that i looked into it today, is that i wanted to see for myself that the Garrison-infirmery or
field hospital was actually present in the Nieuwpoort catalogue that Imer is in.....along with the knowledge that indeed the archive here is partially Dutch(Groningen) has masses of names like Amatus and Carolus and Ludovicus,,also found them an groningen, and Middelburg, all in the same booK!
This could be of importance to make my point that Cecilia was Dutch(1830_1839) technically,and it
is possible that Celia and Imer's child was born in the field hospital because of his rang and the fact that
they certainly served civilians(i also found proof in the book).
I will keep this aside for further query's.
Ok some of the circumstantial evidence.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9GKT-J3N?i=39&cc=2139860&cat=244775
see page 40 for presence of Garnizoen-infirmerie/garrison fieldhospital.
The article speaks of the death of an officer and the garrisonsdokter confirms the cause and agrees.
The proof that they also served civilians is on anothe page in this catalogue.
next is the presence of a Dutch death certificate,city of Middelburg, during the Batavian republic, inserted in this catalogue from West Vlaanderen,proving my point that the administration was still partially in Dutch hands., during the time of the garrisons presence in Nieuwpoort.Altough the Batavian republic seized to exist long before that.1809?
So i will not cast aside that she's possibly Dutch,or the child.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batavian_Republic very boring good stuff.
And some info about the Yser
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Yser
But no sign of Cecilia
Adrie
I
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Hi Adrien
I have searched the Depaye name before. I've tried all variations. I did go through all those towns you sent and no Dupaye or any other type of spelling. Some do don't have 1832 birth records. I'm on the search for her death record here in the US. Maybe with some luck her parents will be listed. It has taken some time because I do not know if she died in New Jersey or New York. The search continues.
Ellen
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Hi Ellen.
This was also what i found yesterday, in many catalogue's there are parts missing about the correct period.In many 1832 is absent in both French and Dutch.So that was taking my breath away yesterday.
We have native French speakers here in the street,and they told me the correct or most likely
pronouncement would be Doupagne-or Dupagne with a g but spoken as y, so i started a search
and
I found the name Doupagne around Liege, Haut-Flemalle
image 28 of 588, right corner below.(Death cert)
The name Doupagne is the most common fonetic spelling if translated in Dutch
and I found many hits!
I also browsed Gentinnes ,Brabant Belgium for 1832/ Dup-returns zero.
also browsed Flemalle -Haut/Liege for the year 1832/Doupagne births=0
the french way of writing the year is
Mille Huit Cent trente deux.
Also checked Forest, Brabant zuid 1832 =null
but after browsing this
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/find/name?search=1&self=|dupagne|0|0
it becomes obvious that as well Dupagne as Doupagne could be indeed better spellings for
Dupayne.. it also shows that there are so many hits in Liege(Luik) and Belgium
in general.
Fonetically Both Doupagne as wel as Dupagne are a 100% auditif match for Dup-but they will expand the search dramatically.
Still, i'll give it a go for some evenings to come,...
about the New York or New Jersey question,do you have to solve that primary to ask a question at the censusdesk?, is it not possible to ask directly where she died?....
I do not know how to search in America , but i would suspect that she was naturalised,and
this should be on paper somewhere.?There must be a document somewhere where she changes the country of origin to France...
Adrie
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Adrie
This is very interesting.
Victor and Cecilia never became citizens. So no records for that. The New York and New Jersey problem is from 1895 ( when Victor died) till the last time I find her on census, she is living with a daughter in Rye New York. But then I find the daughter again in New Jersey in 1915. So I do not know which state she died in. And there are no records on line of her death.
Ellen
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Adrien
I wanted to ask you what you think of these 2 names and how similiar do you think they may be. Grosjean in american census living with Cecilia and her husband, and Grandjean married to a Dupagne in Namur.
https://gw.geneanet.org/bgil?n=dupagne&oc=&p=victor+joseph
let me know what you think.
Ellen
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It's encouraging that you are using strings to search.what the result is proving, is that Dupagne is a very valid spelling for Dupanye, and that There are big clusters of the name in virtually all parts of French speaking Belgium, especially in Namen(Namur), Liege(Luik) and its vicinity.Not to mention all surroundings of Brussels.
Yesterday i have been searching for the 4 most likely forms around Liege/Namen focussing on
d'Oupeye.
Fonetically it has a striking resemblance,is a valid spelling, does exist around these towns,and
given de way of writing, ..d'Oupeye it would be a name for the local gentry, a noble mans name,to have the privilage by law to call yourself not with your surname; but with the name of the town
you were born in, like say in my case, if i was of noble gentry, and i'm born in Assenede, ik could write my name as Adrie Kintziger d'Assenede, or Adrie D'Assenede and drop my surname.
As Oupeye does exist wedged under Charleroi and the river Meuse(see google maps), and i found several hits for Doupagne, and the regiment of your officer was stationed in Charleroi for some time, to defend the natural border of the Meuse, i gave it a hit to search in Oupeye
catalog for the year of 1832--you never know,....but there was no gain.Nada.
Oupeye is kinda beautiful if you set google for pictures btw.
Back to our case.
The names you found, with the time bracket on it (for the father), it is possible that they are in the branch somwhere.should he had a brother, anything would be possible.Or there is a chils in this branch not on display yet.Very good find.....I did read the certificate to search for clue's, but
they seem absent.'Cordonnier' for occupation is shoemaker , btw.
Grosjean and Grandjean are of the same cloth, Grand/Gros means big ..but i do not fully understand you sentence from above , took a (snip)
"Grosjean in american census living with Cecilia and her husband".... can you explain?
It is possible that they are intertwined somwhere,so i would give all of this a map of its own on your desktop,along with a list of valid spellings and locations.I do it all the time, and fill it with
all links that look promising,just copy/paste them.These maps on my desktop are have names like,"clue's for a rainy day",....
I would add d'Oupeye, Doupagne,Dupagne, Dupaije, Du Pagne,Dupaille.
Probably i'll be searching on for locations your officer was serving,or his garrison, apparently
they were also stationed in Charleroi,Diksmuide, Lombardsijde-and possibly Namur.
Adrie
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Hello Adrien
Ok so about the Grosjean name. here is a link to the 1885 New Jersey census. Find Victor and Celia Imer and they have a Emil Grosjean living with them. It states he is foreign born but not German. ( I don't know why Germany is on there)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9398-9GS3-N?i=16&cc=1803972
I just thought the 2 names were very similiar and living with Celia.
Ellen
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Hi Ellen.
Good to share it, you never know when something is hidden..., but i would not think much of it.
Probably birds of a feather,...or Emile is from the same garrison , i would not be surprised if he was a relative either.The nationality's well, all 3 of them, given the revolution and uprise to the Dutch and French rulers , Belgium had to format itself, and rebrand all inhabitants a Belgians.
Thos that did not agree had to leave,or relocate to another part of the border.Emigrants from around 1830 to 1850 however,never awaited the nationalityswitch , or kept avoiding it by never going back to change it,nor did they want to tell the Americans/and states why they left Europe
or what their real nationality was.This was often the case for deserteurs that broke away from their duty's.Another reason to hide their nationality, was that America always used
contingent,inclusion/exclusion/quota systems.Also they sometimes refused entry for controversial nationality's.
This would explain why they never asked for Citizenship in the States.
Secondary..;in the right corner above the document "Dwelling house", so...its not a certainty that they connected further in the future.
My eye catched "Hoboken" on the document.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoboken,_Antwerp
Many citie's in America are founded by Dutch/ Belgians or Flemish dutch people.Like say
Breukelen(Brooklyn), Watervliet, can you find it on google maps in Belgium ? or Hoboken.
One of the reasons the immigrants tried to go there was to find birds of a feather.
Adrie
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Hi.
I never knew Hoboken was a Dutch city. I'm learning alot.
Ok so I have a new idea. You said in a previous email that since Victor was in the military, he would need permission to wed. I know they were not married when Carlus was born,. But could they have married soon after. My question is what city do you think he may have been stationed? Nuiewport was where Cecilia gave birth, but you said there was a hospital there. So would it be easier to find a marriage in 1852-1854 time frame. Gustave ( their second child ) was born at sea . 1855
Ellen
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Currently i'm searching several possible pathways to steer out of the muddy water.I keep it away
from your attention, not to keep you out of it, or out of the picture,or to make the case interesting , but some people that could provide info to me , are basically friend from long time ago, when i was a member of WW2 Clubs, WW1 clubs, and fora about the great wars. I was also in a military-private club,that visited site's of both WWars...but i left that theatre long ago.
One of the moderators there and then,granted me with an acces to a certain military repository
that i'm not supposed to have or to share...and i want to keep it.But the man kinda diffused away
to cuckoo-land, started singing in his e-mails....and talking about recipe's for soup.So i had to leave him behind.But i still have my acces.Until now , i did not find anything of interest there,exept for some historical context and some dates.
The only certainty i found there, and is related to your question,is that the regiment also served in Tournai, or Doornik.This was around 1843!, and due to the fact that they speak French, and Doornik was a disputable area of Belgium/France during that time,it becomes a
possible target to browse.It is also close to Nieuwpoort, Lombardsijde,Brugge.
Interesting tought, given the fact that Celia also mentioned France as place of birth.?(where)?
The next target would be all parts f Belgium around that area, like Komen Waasten
Cominnes and all facilitymunicipality's on the side of France/Belgium, Hainaut, or the axis
Brussels,Tournai.Next target Bruyelle(because of the place, and because of the use of the Word Brufsel instead of Bruxelles) , and after that all municipalities along the French Belgian border from Komen Waasten-Tournai to the shoreline above in France.
This is because much of these villages in France and the westhoek in Flanders were sometimes Dutch/french in a intermittant pattern.Probably you can see the Flemish names?
I will give them provisionally;but keep in mind these are basically assumptions...
And i do not want to overload you.
Next thuesday, i have to leave for Turkey, because of our holliday.I will be back around the 16 th, and altough the hotel has wifi, and i do read my mails, i will not answer any....but after that i'm back.
so
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tournai
you will find possible target locations under geography
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipalities_with_language_facilities
All of these , and please observe the pathway, Liege,to Tournai/Doornik, and know that this was roughly the trajectory of the moving regiment,from Liege to Brussels and then to Tournai
and after that to Nieuwpoort, and sometimes back and forth from Lombardsijde to Tournai.
This was their line of communication along parts of the river Scheldt(Schelde) and a means of transportation along the French Border, the French also served the regiments with food and military material because they hoped that French Belgium would seek attachment to France.
Still today this is a issue in our politics.It is possible that Imer met Cecilia in one of these places.
I have to leave you now, but feel free to send material or findings, if any,but i have to gear up and start packing our luggage.
Adrie
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