Ottenbach ZH - Bevölkerungsverzeichnis - 1689 - Sidler & Grob - Rudolf & Anna
1689 Ottenbach Bevölkerungsverzeichnisse page 338
I was excited to find this entry. Rudolf's birthdate looked like 1605 but that little "0" was a "1". That made more sense because being born in 1605 would have made him 10 years older. Too old. Also, Rudolf wasn't in the 1695 Bevölkerungsverzeichnisse so I knew he died between 1689 and 1695. That made his death/burial date fairly easy to find.
I am very interested in the line just above his name??????? Who is that?
https://www.gatheringgardiners.com/2024/11/rudolf-sidler-1615-1693.html
의견
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As especially the dates were not easily read with confidence, I decided to first compile a summary by comparing with other sources - see 264-2-3) Rudolf Sidler (1615-1693) ooIII Anna Grob - which contains all info from this page plus some extra info from other sources. This leads to two questions:
On your blog you list an additional child (Ulrich born 1659): what is your source? Not listed 1689 implies he either died before - or got married (and likely moved away).
On your blog you list Barbel Stehel as wife of Fridli: again, what is your source? I couldn't find a corresponding marriage. I did find his marriage (as widower) 1700 with Verena Frei.
Comment: Caspar's wife was Anna Wyder (Wydler) - not Wilder.
According to geneanet Rudolf has been married three times. His son Melcher (08.03.1657) on the BV 1795 confirms the existence of a second marriage. I feel it would be worth it to search for entries of Rudolf with his first and second wife in earlier BVs.
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I am very interested in the line just above his name??????? Who is that?
Anna Gneeserin, Jogli Stierlis sel. Witwen, Vide Supra. [see above]
Ottenbach 10.06.1656: Stierli, Jakob, Ottenbach, getraut mit Gneser, Anna, Ottenbach.
Looks like Anna Gneser, widow of Jakob Stierli, lived in household LXXXII, together with Rudolf Sidler and his family. On the other hand we have her mentioned a few pages earlier (p. 641) in household LIV (b. 30.11.1634) with children
28.01.1668 Hanß Jogeli
18.07.1669 Melcherli
16.07.1671 Vreneli / plus likely married sons
03.06.1658 Jogeli, Schneider, oo Klein Vrena Seidler - with daughter Margerethli - in LV
14.04.1660 Heini, oo Klein Bärbel Seidler - with son Hanß Jacob - in LVI
What's going on? Possibly (might be far fetched!) she used to live in LXXXII together with husband and children. As widow with at least two sons married she might have moved to smaller premises with the smaller children - but still kept a room in her old house (????).
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As to your first question. This is the baptism for Ulrich. Very difficult to read:
On your blog you list Barbel Stehel as wife of Fridli: again, what is your source? I couldn't find a corresponding marriage. I did find his marriage (as widower) 1700 with Verena Frei.
Came from FS, no sources on any of the children except Regula
1659 Ulrich Sidler baptism 13 Feb 1659 Ottenbach film 008014328 page 185
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Thanks for the baptism of Ulrich - difficult to read, but looks ok.
For Dridli I have looked back further and found a marriage Fridli Sidler with Barbara Stehli on 12.10.1641 - which it obviously cannot be (Fridli *1661). More likely he married as Friedrich (Ottenbach 04.04.1693) - with Friedrich being the standardised spelling in EDB - but confirmed by the marriage entry Kilchberg (parish of the bride - which is online from the state archive). I have added a corresponding note to 264-2-3) Rudolf Sidler (1615-1693) ooIII Anna Grob.
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https://community.familysearch.org/en/profile/WSeelentag I found two Bevölkerungsverzeichnisse. The first one has Rudolf's first wife. Unfortunately the 1657 Bevölkerungsverzeichnisse is just a list of individuals and is not helpful in this regard. I also found a second BV for Anna Grob dated 1682
1649 Bevölkerungsverzeichnisse, Ottenbach Rudolf Sidler-Elizabeth Leuthert and daughter Barbara film 008126304 page 139
Only Barbara is listed as a child, Heinrich b 1644 and Margaretha b 1648 must have died.
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https://community.familysearch.org/en/profile/WSeelentag
1682 Bevölkerungsverzeichnisse Ottenbach film 008126301 page 737
Well written, clear and easy to decipher. 10 children in all!
No children listed for Elsbeth Leuthert who died in 1652
Barbara Kuntz has two children: can't read the first one and Melchior
The other eight are Anna Grob who married in 1658. Everyone is going to church except Anna Grob.
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https://community.familysearch.org/en/profile/WSeelentag 1670 Bevölkerungsverzeichnisse Ottenbach Rudi Sidler and Anna Grob Ottenbach film 007765846 page 382
Also on https://www.gatheringgardiners.com/2024/11/rudolf-sidler-1615-1693.html
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https://community.familysearch.org/en/profile/WSeelentag While we are at it: 1678 Bevölkerungsverzeichnisse film 008126303 page 469
The Pastor always mentions the father.
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1682: Barbara Kuntz has two children: can't read the first one and Melchior.
I had problems as well - decided in "Tryna" - fortunatly in 1670 it is easier to read: Thrina = Catharina.
Thank you for these images - I have added all new info to 264-2-3) Rudolf Sidler (1615-1693) ooIII Anna Grob.
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Wolf: You never fail to amaze me! I copied everything to Rudolf's webpage to reflect what we have done.
I tried to find the burial record for Rudolf's first two wives but alas, no records from 1647-1658.
In my entire life, and I am 78, I have never met anyone like you and that is a sincere compliment! KG
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According to geneanet Elsbeth Leuthert died 16.05.1652.
According to geneanet Barbara Kunz died 21.10.1657.
Suprising you didn't find anything 1647-1658.
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I guess that is the best we can get. I wonder how the person on geneanet knows that?
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In connection with Vronegg Urmi (um1605-1657) oo Jakob Sidler I have a burial register page 1655/57 on my disk - the entry just above Vronegg is Barbel Kuntzin.
Yo may want to check 16.05.1652 once more (I don't have that page).
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https://community.familysearch.org/en/profile/WSeelentag Can you translate this for me?
1657 Barbel Kuntzin burial 21 Oct film 008014328 page 172
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WSeelentag Would you mind translating this one as well? The Ottenbach Pasor from 1656 - 1677. Hans was Ulrich Wiesendanger. It looks like this page is an example of when one Pastor took over from another and thus the handwriting changed. The indexers say this was 1653 but it looks like 1651 to me. Was Elisabeth Leüthart only 19 when she died?
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Death entry Elisabeth Leuthert.
This double page is confusing at first sight - not in chronological order! Left baptisms 1657 - right deaths beginning 1647. Remember - some time ago we had discussed that you couldn't find burial entries 1647-1658? Here they are: page 171left = bapt 1656 / 171right = deaths 1647-1653 / 172both = deaths 1654-1657 / next page I have = 185 = baptisms 1658-1659. Pages 171right and 172left are a different hand - possibly written by someone else retrospectively(?). What do we find on page 173?
Now for Elisabeth Leuthert:
The entry just before is Verena Freÿin … den [day cut off] tag hornung anno (16)53.
The entry just following is Anna Paürin … den 15. Julij.
Next one Anna Müllerin … den 27. 9bis anno (19)53.
With Elßi Leuthartin Rudli Sÿdlers frauw zu Ottenbach starb den 19. tag Maÿens no year is given - but from the context it has to be 19.05.1653. This means he married again less than a month after his first wife's death.
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WSeelentag Thanks. KG
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I don't expect a good story - she already died 29 Nov same year.
Her parents had married 01.02.1622 - explains the "hand vor d(er) Zytt ghan …". Whilst I cannot decipher the last word - it must mean intercourse … before the time (of the marriage).
I know Anna is not part of our work however I looked for her death on the 29th Nov 1689 without success. What am I missing? KG
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... I looked for her [Anna Gneser] death on the 29th Nov 1689 without success.
I had written "I don't expect a good story - she already died 29 Nov same year." about the baptismal entry 1622 you had suggested … "same year" is this Anna's year of birth: 1622 ! The Anna you are looking for died after 1689 (or whenever exactly this BV was written up) - at least I don't have a death date.
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https://community.familysearch.org/en/profile/WSeelentag Sounds good. Probably not that important. It is fairly rare to have community members living with you. Even today. All the best, KG
Is it possible this could be her death date?
1705 Anna Gerser death 21 Apr hus Jagelis Stöchterlj Ottenbach film 008014328 page 392
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Definitely not:
Anna Gneser, H(ans) Jagelis S(elig) Töchterlj
A widow would never be described as someones little daughter 🤔.
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Good to know. KG
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