Affoltern am Abis ZH - baptism - 1713 - Schneebeli - Elsbeth
의견
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This was a tricky one - for two reasons: difficult to read and contradicting her mother as listed on your blog: Elsbeth Schneebeli is the daughter of Heinrich Schneebeli and Katharina Dups. Billeter had given 28.11.1710 for her baptism: did you take her mother's name from Billeter? According to the age at death, I would calculate her birth as 28.11.1712 (neither 1710 nor 1713). In order to sort my thoughts I had decided to first summarize the family on Geneal-Forum - but I am not sure if the info on Elisabeth Schneebeli is correct ☹. But let's now have a look at the baptismal entry:
1713 / den 28. Winterm(onat): Elisabet
Heinrich Schnebeli Haffners / Elsbet Schnebelin
I find the names of the witnesses difficult - so for the time being I leave that alone - until we are sure this is the correct baptism. Heinrich Schnebeli "Haffners" (nickname) and Elsbet Schnebelin got married Affoltern 01.12.1707.
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WSeelentag Hi, Well, here we have another problem to solve. I only had FS and Billeter for this Elsbet. Today I looked at Affoltern am Abis baptismal records from 1712-1715 and only found the 1713 record for Elsbet. However I did find Elsbet's brother:
I am going to look for her in Ottenbach in case Billeter made a birth place error.
1712 Heinrich Schneebeli bap 19 Jan mother Elsbet Schnebelein Affoltern am Albis film 008014299 page 411.
This Pastor is difficult to read. Do you prefer documents put here or on my blog? All the best, KG
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1707 Elsbet Schnebelin marriage to Heinrich Schneebeli 1 Feb Affoltern am Albis page 479
I think this document says: Heinrich Schnebeli "Haffners" (nickname) which fits with Elsbet's birth record..The German surname Haffner is an occupational name that means "potter".
Apparently Heinrich married Elsbet Schnebelin and had Elsbeth Schneebeli in 1713, FS ID; Heinrich: LVC2-2RF Elsbet: K64Z-34N
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"Do you prefer documents put here or on my blog?"
For downloading and transcribing it doesn't make any difference. The advantage of a document in the blog is that I can link to it from the forum.
This does not apply to records from Affoltern and quite a few other parishes. The State Archive has begun some time ago to put canton Zürich church records online - see this example for Affoltern: https://suche.staatsarchiv.djiktzh.ch/Dateien/310/D1550114.pdf#page=142. Loading may take some time as the entire book (as pdf) is loaded - but you then could also copy it to your hard disk. Some browsers seem not to interpret the page number correctly: they display the start page, and you have to scroll manually.
I am not sure how far they got by now - last time I checked, Hedingen was online.
Go to https://suche.staatsarchiv.djiktzh.ch/archivplansuche.aspx?ID=308230 - click on the "+" to get a list of parishes - select - then select the volume - scroll down to "Dateien" with the pdf-link,
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Marriage Schneebeli & Schneebeli 1707
A(nno) 1707, d(en) 1.t(en) Hornung eÿngesägnet (eingesegnet = consecrated)
Heinrich Eprecht Blaser ... (not our topic)
Heinrich Schnebeli Haffners vnd Elsbet Schnebelin Schmidhansen Rudi
The nickname "Haffners" is certainly derived from the profession, i.e. implies that an ancestor (possibly several generations) were Hafner (potters).
"Schmidhansen Rudi" is also identifying Elsbet's family line. Likely a Rudi (Rudolf) was her father - with the nickname "Schmidhansen" (which I cannot explain).
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This gives us more info on the witness, again acting in this position in 1713:
In 1713 it just says "Stabhalter Winkelmann Müller" - no given name, just his profession (miller) and position (Stabhalter = presiding judge at the court).
In 1712 we learn his given name (Heinrich) and also "Fendrich des Freÿn Amts" (Fähnrich = ensign of the Freiamt district).
The other witness is Elsbeth Weiß des Küeffer Weißn Tochter (Elsbet the cooper's daughter).
This still leaves the problem of the correct baptismal entry for the daughter Elisabet:
28.11.1710 Affoltern (Billter) is not correct.
28.11.1712 (calculated from age at death) is not found in Affoltern.
28.11.1713 Affoltern doesn't fit this calculation - but then the pastor could have made a mistake.
Schneebeli were also citizens of Ottenbach - a line originating from Affoltern: to check Ottenbach is therefore certainly worth while (Ottenbach not yet online from the State Archive).
This still leaves my question: where does Katharina Dups for Elisabet's mother come from?
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WSeelentag Hi, Thanks for the update on the State Archives.
I'm uploading Affoltern but it may take quite a while to upload. I searched in vain for Elsbeth Schneebeli 1713 - 1765's birth record in Affoltern am Albis and Ottenbach. Apparently Billeter was wrong. Before we leave Elsbeth I have a couple of records to have translated and then we can deal with Katharina Dups. I have found some Dups in the Affoltern am Albis records but not her name. I also looked at the Affoltern Bevölkerungsverzeichnis which are dark and unreadable.
1741 Heinrich Schneebeli 15 July burial Affoltern am Albis page 564
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1745 Elsbeth Schnebelin burial 12 December Affoltern am Albis page 569
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1696 Heinrich Schneebeli/Catharina Dubs 6 October marriage Affoltern am Albis page 476
Not much information to go on.
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1696 Heinrich Schneebeli/Catharina Dubs 6 October marriage Affoltern am Albis
I was aware of this marriage (from EDB) - but what makes you think, they are the parents of Elisabeth, wife of Hans Kaspar Sidler?
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1741 Heinrich Schneebeli 15 July burial Affoltern am Albis
Abgestorbne des 1741-ten Jahrs
Jul. 13-te Meister Heinrich Schnebeli, Schuhmacher und gewesener Ehegaumer, im Hasel.
ann (crossed out) mense et die aetatis, juß (just?) 68 Feriâ Henrici.
I don't fully understand this ☹.
It starts out to give age at death in a/m/d - but then does not give numbers. Is 68 the age in years? "Just 68" could mean recently 68 years.
Feriâ Henrici = holiday of St.Heinrich: there seem to be several - but one is 13 July.
Note that there is no wife mentioned, nor is he indicated as widower. This makes it difficult to attribute him to a given family.
Note also that on 8 Feb Anna Bichel died, wife of Heinrich Schnebeli the younger, also Schuhmacher.
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1745 Elsbeth Schnebelin burial 12 December Affoltern am Albis
Abgestorbne des 1745-ten Jahrs
Xbr 12 te
Elsbeth Schnebeli, an aet. 62, Heinrich Schnebelis Hafners ehel. Hausfr(au).
So she is not the wife of the Heinrich +1741! Her husband was still alive when she died - and he was a Hafner, not a Schuhmacher.
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So where are we.
- After looking at 1696 Heinrich Schneebeli/Catharina Dubs 6 October marriage - They did marry but I see no proof Catharina Dubs is Elsbeth's (b 1713) mother.
- In Catharina Dubs' burial record it lists Heinrich Schneebeli as her husband.
- Billeter lists Elsbeth Schneebeli as the second wife but put her son Ulrich b 1751 as the last child of Veronica Schneebeli, 5 years after Vernoica's death. I think Billeter got sloppy and made an obvious mistake.
- I think Ulrich b 20 June 1751 might be Elsbeth's son. The parents are difficult to read. Indexing has the parents as: father: Rudolf Sidler mother: Anna Schneebeli. Let me know what you think.
- The 1849 Bevölkerungsverzeichnis lists Elsbeth Schneebeli's birth as 28 November 1713. There are no other entries for her. I think that is a good document. Thanks for the translation.
- Based on Elsbeth's 1713 baptismal record I believe Heinrich Schnebeli Haffners / Elsbet Schnebelin are her parents. I have births for both which I will post below.
- Neither of Elsbeth's parents burial records looks correct as you have shown. Below are the four documents that may shed more light on this whole affair:
Catharina Dubs death 9 June 1724 film 8014299 page 553
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1671 Heinrich Schneebeli 20 November Uli and Margretha Hetz baptism Affoltern am Albis film 008014299 page 363
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1683 Elsbeth Schnebelin baptism 20 Nov Father Rudi, mother Anna Glött Affoltern am Albis film 008014299 page 381
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1751 Ulrich Sidler father - Rudolf Sidler mother- Anna Schneebeli, 20 Jun Ottenbach film 008014328 page 447
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1. After looking at 1696 Heinrich Schneebeli/Catharina Dubs 6 October marriage - They did marry but I see no proof Catharina Dubs is Elsbeth's (b 1713) mother.
Agreed - she's not of our concern … but why was this ever assumed?
2. In Catharina Dubs' burial record 1724 it lists Heinrich Schneebeli as her husband.
That's correct - but not our concern.
3. Billeter lists Elsbeth Schneebeli as the second wife but put her son Ulrich b 1751 as the last child of Veronica Schneebeli, 5 years after Vernoica's death. I think Billeter got sloppy and made an obvious mistake.
Agreed - an obvious mistake.
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WSeelentag Thank goodness you were able to translate Elsbeth's 1713 birth record! That put things in perspective!!
I don't know where Catharina Dubs came into view. Not from Billeter.
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1751 Ulrich Sidler: father - Rudolf Sidler, mother- Anna Schneebeli
4. "I think Ulrich b 20 June 1751 might be Elsbeth's son. The parents are difficult to read. Indexing has the parents as: father: Rudolf Sidler mother: Anna Schneebeli. Let me know what you think."
1751 Den 20. junii
Ulerich Sÿdler, ob(iit) 17. IV. (1)800
Ruedolff Sÿdler u(nd) Anna Schnebli von Ottenbach
So this is definitely in contradiction to his parents being Hans Kaspar Sidler and Elisabeth Schneebeli. Looks like another bug in Billeter's data in this context.
5. "The 1749 Bevölkerungsverzeichnis (Ottenbach) lists Elsbeth Schneebeli's birth as 28 November 1713. There are no other entries for her. I think that is a good document."
Agreed - we have reliable information on Hans Kaspar's first marriage (and the resulting children) - but no reliable information, if he had any children with his second wife.
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WSeelentag Excellent work!!! Billeter was a major genealogist however he did make mistakes. Thank goodness we have these Ottenbach records available and you are able and willing to bring them to life! 😁 My father use to say, "The most difficult thing in life is finding truth."
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7. Neither of Elsbeth's parents burial records looks correct as you have shown.
Not quite 😉.
I have shown that the two death records are not records of a married couple.
Heinrich (1741) is a shoemaker, not a potter - so he will not be Elisabeth's (*1713) father.
On the other hand, Elsbeth (+1745) was wife of Heinrich the potter - so most likely Elsbeth's (*1713) mother. Heinrich was still alive then. Elsbeth died 1745 aged 62 - so she will have been born around 1683 - fits your find. You'd have to find another death record for a Heinrich after 1745.
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1683 Elsbeth Schnebelin baptism 20 Nov Father Rudi, mother Anna Glött
1863 Den 20. 9.bris: Elsbeth
Rudj Schneblj / Anna Glëttli (Glättli): married 29.11.1681
Heinrich Bligenstorffer (Blickenstorfer) / Elsbeth Suterj
As mentioned above - most likely Elsbeth's (*1713) mother.
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WSeelentag Thanks Wolf!!!
"You'd have to find another death record for a Heinrich after 1745." Will do!🤗
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1751 Heinrich Schneebeli death 14 Mar 67 yrs Affoltern am Albis film 008014299 page 763
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1751 Heinrich Schneebeli death 14 Mar 67 yrs Affoltern am Albis
Abgestorbne A(nno) 1751, Sunday, 14. Merz
Mstr (Meister) Heinrich Schneebeli, Haffner, alt 67 Jahr und 11 Monat.
Note the "Haffner" (not Haffners"), his profession, not the line's nickname. On the other hand, professions have often been handed on for generations in a family - it is therefore plausible that a member of the "Haffners" line worked as Hafner himself. This makes this Heinrich Schneebeli most likely to Elsbeth's (*1713) father.
Aged 67 y 11 m means birth about April 1683 - not 1671!
On 15. Aprellen (1683) we have the baptism of Heinrich, son of M(eister) Heini Schneblj der Haffner and Anna Suterj - the couple got married 16.06.1668 - with the somewhat confusing listing of Heinrich as "Maurer" (did he change profession?).
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Baptisms Schneebeli with father = Heinrich (Heini) and mother = Anna Suter:
06.02.1669 Elßbeth - no profession for father given
26.02.1671 Jacob - no profession for father given
04.08.1672 Elßbeth - no profession for father given
03.10.1675 Rudolff - no profession for father given
27.04.1679 Anna - father = Hafner
15.04.1683 Heinrich - father = Hafner (above)
Only years 1668-1683 have been checked. During this period several fathers Heinrich Schneebeli are on record - including one married to a Margreth Suter.
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1683 Heinrich Schneeebeli baptism 15 Apr Parent: Heinrich Schneebeli / Anna Suter Affoltern am Albis film 008014299 page 381
I like the Hafner after Heinrich's name? There are two other Heinrich Schneebelis on this page and the next but none as close as this one.
This baptism on 15 April would be 67 years 10 months 29 days from birth to death. Can't get much closer.
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1668 Heinrich Schneebeli marriage 16 June to Anna Suteri Affoltern am Albis film 008014295 page 464
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