Was Ambrose (Ambros) Sieben a Deserter?
Ambrose Sieben is my great great grandfather who came out to South Australia and settled in Adelaide, working as a porter for the railways. He married Annie Martin in 1862 and his son Ambrose was born in 1863, followed by a daughter, Lavinia, who died at 6 months. Sadly, he died in 1865 due to a workplace accident. The newspaper account of his death said that he had been working with the railways for several years and was well respected.
His marriage certificate names 'Christian' as his father, and his death certificate gives his age as 47 years, so birth year around 1818. As 'sieben' is German for 'seven', my family has always assumed he was born in Germany. My great grandfather, Ambrose Sieben (Jr) grew up with a step-father, so no family stories were passed down from his father.
I cannot find any record of his arrival. I can locate an 'Ambrosius Sieben' born on 19 Feb 1818 in Nachenheim, Hessen, Germany, but his father was Michaelis Sieben and his mother, Anna Maria Koch.
The plot thickens when this Ambrosius (Ambros) Sieben moved to Amsterdam and married a Cornelia Bekker on 15 Jan 1851. A daughter, Cornelia, appears to have been born in 1850 followed by a son, Eduard, born on 30 Nov 1851. Sadly, he died on 19 Dec 1852.
His profession was 'zeeman' - sailor. In the registration record of Cornelia and Ambrosius is the remark that he 'deserted from his ship' but I don't know the details. This is the link to that document. https://www.openarchieven.nl/saa:d8d39420-f196-4afa-80a7-29379fe43cc2
Another record, entitled, 'Ambrosius Sieben in the Web: Amsterdam, Netherlands, Population Index, 1780-1865' states that he left Amsterdam on 1 Nov, 1852 (before his son died). Cornelia's death certificate has the comment, 'Opmerkingen: overledene was een verlaten vrouw.' Deceased was an abandoned woman (wife?)'
I'm thinking he came out as part of a ship's crew and decided to stay - forsaking his family back in Europe. He's not listed as a deserter in South Australian records. I received some valuable assistance from kind members in the Germany Group, so I'm really hoping that there might be someone in this group who can help me locate more information in Dutch records about this desertion.
If anyone can help shed light on this puzzle, I would be extremely grateful!
Thanking you in anticipation,
Kathy
답변들
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Hi Kathy,
I could not find more data on his ship desertion.
I did find the official extract of his birth certificate, both in German and in Dutch translation, as attachments to his marriage in Amsterdam (mandatory as proof of identity):
"Netherlands, Noord-Holland, Civil Registration, 1811-1950," database with images, FamilySearch
(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939K-F794-TP?cc=2020117&wc=MCLC-J23%3A341763001%2C346964701
: 21 May 2014), Amsterdam (huwelijksbijlagen) > Huwelijksbijlagen 1851, part 2 > image 214 of 2514; Noord-Hollands Archief (Noord-Hollands Archives), Haarlem.
Highlights:
Ambros was born on 9 Feb 1818 at 10 in the morning in a house in the Mühlgasse in Nackenheim region Oppenheim, son of Michael Sieben (age 33, meatchopper) and Anna Maria Koch.
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Hello gjt47,
Thank you so much for these extra details. It all helps to create the story of Ambrose Sieben and I'm very grateful for your efforts on my behalf.
I feel fairly confident that I have the right Ambrose but the only way to be really certain is to know the name of the ship he was a crewman on, and whether that ship in fact came to Adelaide around 1853. Unfortunately, that information is proving very difficult to find!
I'll keep trying, so wish me luck! :)
Kind regards,
Kathy Stringer (nee Sieben)
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Ik ging even een pagina terug , naar het attest dat hierboven is vermeld,dus gewoon 1 pag backgescrold,kom ik het volgende blad tegen.Blijkbaar zat onze Ambros in een soort gunstregeling waarbij hij niet bij wettelijke verplichting moest aantonen dat hij aan de militieplichten voldaan had.Puur inhoudelijk zou dat eigenlijk betekenen dat de zoon de nationaliteit van de vader volgde...en hier geen militaire verplichtingen had.(dit is natuurlijk wel erg vrijpostig geïnterpreteerd)
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His full name is on this folio, Michael Johann(nz)? and something.....
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Oeps, fout van mij in de interpretatie , er staat een punt na Sieben.Dus toch niet.
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the original German certificate is also in the stash; magnificent treasure trove found by gjt
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Thank you for your research on my behalf. This is all very interesting.
If he was exempt from doing the usual compulsory military service, then can I assume he deserted from a ship that sailed out to Australia - or not?
Do you think there would be records available to prove that? Do you think this is the Ambrose that came out to Australia??
May I ask for another favour? Would it be possible for you to write out the Dutch on this for me, please? I can then put it into Google Translator to have a record of exactly what it says. I'm assuming this is the page that talks about his exemption?
I've had no luck in finding Michael Sieben's birth record. There are several records that show details about place of birth and parents' names, but they don't provide an actual date of birth which is both strange and frustrating!
In reading through these posts again, I picked up in gjt's earlier 'Highlights', that Michael was aged 33 when Ambros was born in 1818, making HIS birth year, 1785 (or thereabouts). That's a valuable piece of information, so thank you again!!
Cheers for now,
Kathy
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He was not exempt from military (possible) obligations,but was in a strange way exempt from providing proof that he had no military obligations .
There are several pages mentioning Bekker also,if you use the arrows in the above catalogue , around Ambros.
Yes , it is him , and Ambros is short for =>etc
I can write out the above page, if you like,or maybe gjt will do it,but i do not have time today and tomorrow,in the sunday evening perhaps?
If you would like to find his pathway to Aus, you should focus on first port of entry, and weather he requested the Aus nationality ,...most of the time those documents have the path of entry or vessel.
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Adrien Kintziger ✭✭✭
Thank you, Adrien for your advice. I'll certainly have a look at the document as you suggest. I think you've provided the gist of what it says so I won't ask you to write it out if you're busy. It's fine.
What I found today, was the Naturalisation Certificate for Ambros Sieben!! It was granted in 1857 when he'd been in South Australia for 4 years, according to the certificate.
For your information, this is the link Item details (naa.gov.au) and you can click on the image in the right hand corner. It would be nice to have the name of the ship etc but I'm not sure whether it's accessible...
I feel that this confirms that I have the correct Ambros(e), so I'm now going to see what I can find out about my great gr. gr. grandparents! Wish me luck!
So grateful for all your help, Adrien.
Kindest regards,
Kathy
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Kathy, the page you showed is the excerpt of the birth certificate, translated from German to Dutch. Dit not read your request correctly, that's why I translated it in English already. Here goes:
Translation from High German
Extract from the birth register of the municipality of Nackenheim for the year 1818 deposited with the municipality of Bodenheim.
In the year 1800 eighteen the ninth of February at ten o'clock in the morning, Michael Sieben, thirty-three years old, butcher, living in Nackenheim, appeared before me, mayor registrar of the municipality of Nackenheim, canton Oppenheim, who stated to me that today at four o'clock in the morning a child of the male was born to him, which child he showed to me, and to which he declares that he gives the first name Ambros; and considers himself the father of this child, which he fathered with his wife Anna Maria Koch; which child was born to him in the house located in Muhlgasse
This statement and demonstration was made in the presence of the witnesses, Mr Christoph Camenceur(??), aged thirty-four, clerk at the court, residing in Bodenheim and Johann Lehnleitner, aged thirty years, miner, residing in Bodenheim, and the father and the witnesses signed this birth certificate with me after it had been read to them.
Signed: Michel Sieben. Johann Lehnleitner has stated that he cannot write. Camenceur(??) and Grosmann.
Extracted in Bodenheim on November 15, 1849. For a similar extract.
Translation November 24, 1850, by sworn translator.
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Bits and pieces:
- His being exempt from providing proof (image 213) was by royal decree dated 16 Dec 1850, number 78, and certified by the commissioner of the king for the province of Noord-Holland. Reason for exemption not stated. In the National Archive there is an index record referring to a report of this exemption, but unfortunately the report itself is not online... Page 1198, bottom: https://www.nationaalarchief.nl/onderzoeken/archief/2.02.04/invnr/3870/file/NL-HaNA_2.02.04_3870_243?eadID=2.02.04&unitID=3870&query=
- In their 1851 marriage certificate they recognized as theirs a daughter Cornelia born 28 May 1850. Same as Cornelia Bekker was recognized at marriage of her parents in 1826, being born 7 Sep 1824 (image 218)
- In their 1851 marriage certificate is recorded that Ambrose's parents were both deceased. https://hdl.handle.net/21.12102/17A389D8AB0C4CF19002ED90309D930C
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Oh Wow, this is great. Thanks so much for taking the time to do this for me. It's so different to the kind of records we have today. It's a story, isn't it!
Interesting that both Cornelia and her parents had children before they were married, that they then 'recognised as being theirs. It's also interesting to note that Michael Sieben and Anna Maria Koch were both deceased by 1851.
According to the text of Ambrose's birth certificate, Michael was 33, so born probably 1785. That would have made him 66 in 1851?? There was an Anna Maria Koch born in Ebersheim, Germany (where she and Michael married) - which is about 10 km from Nackenheim, where their children were born. I think she's the right one. Her baptism date was 2 Dec 1787, making her 64 in 1851. A shame if in fact they were both deceased. Will try to find death records. Fingers crossed...
Many thanks again,
Kathy
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Altough the churchbook that should contain the family is a restricted catalogue,you can take a sneek peek at the index that holds the file.
Go to the magnifying glass , click it and then fill in "Sieben"; the first page has at least 3 sisters for Ambros.
2 Anna Maria's and one Eva al baptised, maybe there are more...
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/167735?availability=Family%20History%20Library
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Wow, great way to find index data on restricted records, new to me. Thanks for sharing!
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Good morning! (It's 8.20 pm here) I've found 5 children for Michael and Anna Maria who married in 1807.
The eldest son, Christian, born 1808, Anna Maria who was born in 1810 sadly died, then Anna Maria born 1811, Eva born 1816 and Ambrosius born 1818.
Trying to find birthdates now for the next generation back. I think Michael was baptised on 26 Jun 1784 in Nieder Olm, Germany, and if that's correct, his parents were Michaelis Sieben and Elisabetha Reger(?). K
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Nice!, you could try to feed Nieder Olm into the Matricula website?...or a parish location near it, some localities change name overtime , some parishes dissolve or merge...
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Ja , eerlijk , ook gisteren pas daarop uitgekomen, schitterende optie die lang in de schaduw heeft gelegen!
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Unsuccessful with the Matricula website. Service not available or capacity problems, apparently.
I'll keep looking! K
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