am I interpreting unusual order of names in 1721 Alsace marriage record right?
This marriage record is for Hanß Heinrich and his bride Catharina. Since there were a couple of Hanß Heinrichs in the same town at that time, he was sometimes referred to as Hanß [son of] Diebolt. In this record, though, he is named as 'Heinrichs Diebolt Hannß': does that order make sense and why the 's' on Heinrich (given his relation to his father is then presented later in the same line). More importantly, his bride Catharina seems to be referred to as the daughter of Diebolts Hannsen Diebolt, though those are all first names: Diebolt and Hannß were not used as family names in this area as far as I can tell. Or is the Hannsen transcribed incorrectly given it doesn't use the same capital H as in the groom's name. I have tentatively transcribed the phrase as 'Catharina, legitimate Daughter of Diebolt Hannsen Diebolt' but it doesn't really make sense. Family trees are confused about her maiden name, with Christmann cited most often, but no mention here. And do you agree with the overall transcription and translation? Thanks!
Transcription:
:Oberhoffen ?? Octobr: [17]21.:
:Heinrichs Diebolt Hannß, d ledige Gesell u hinterlass: jüngste Sohn, weÿl. Dieb[olt] Heinrichs, des gewes: Bürg: alhier; u Jungfr. Catharina Diebolts Hannsen Diebolt des deißjährigen Bürgerm: ehel. Tochter.
Translation
:Oberhoffen ?? October [17]21.:
:Heinrich Diebolt Hannß. the unmarried Journeyman and surviving youngest Son of Dieb[olt] Heinrich, the former Citizen here, and Maiden Catharina, legitimate Daughter of Diebolt Hannsen Diebolt, this year’s Mayor.
Source: Oberhoffen-sur-Moder - Paroisse protestante (Avant 1793) - Registre de baptêmes mariages sépultures 1671-1737 - 3 E 345/1; Image consulted at https://archives.bas-rhin.fr/detail-document/ETAT-CIVIL-C342-P2-R206944#visio/page:ETAT-CIVIL-C342-P2-R206944-2316243; Image 132 of 186
최고의 답변
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I think the first letter in the word read as "Börger" could also be a "G", look at the capital G's here: http://www.suetterlinschrift.de/Lese/Kanzlei2.htm
Note that the second word in the last image is similar; it could be Görg which is a form of Georg/Jörg.
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I agree with Ulrich that the word likely begins with a "G" rather than a "B".
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Good morning Tom,
The first word which begins with the letter "d" escapes me.
I think the second word "ietzige" may be "jetzige" = current, present. Note what appears to be an extraneous curve under the letter "t". I think this is the lower part of the fourth letter "z" which is not connected to the rest of the "z". This would then read as: the current mayor or the present mayor.
I hope the new year has been good to you thus far.
Sincerely, Robert
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I believe the first "word" is actually die 3te (Tochter).
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@Tom Randolph and @Ulrich Neitzel:
Could it be "1te" because of the dot over the "i"?----->die ite = die 1te = the first, where the curve is connecting the number "i" (meaning "1") to the suffix "te" (= the suffix "st").
Then the phrase would be: the 1st = the first daughter born.
Just food for thought.
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답변들
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I may have found a clue to help solve the bride's names: it appears that her father may have been "Diebolt Fauser" rather than Diebolt Hannsen based on the witness below from a cousin's baptism record that I was just working on. Still not clear why Diebolt would have been repeated twice in "Jungfr. Catharina Diebolts Fauser Diebolt des deißjährigen Bürgerm: ehel. Tochter" and whether the next word in the other record below that looks like Bürger is something else (since the 'Bö' is different from other 'bürger's on the page.
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Here, the word looks like"Börger". According to Thode, German-English Genealogical Dictionary, the word "Börger" translates as: citizen.
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@Ulrich Neitzel , @Robert Seal_1 : Thanks both and Merry Christmas!
This couple gets more and more confusing -- as one of their children's death records their mother as Catherine Christmann and another as Catherine Krebs. I have a book (but not with me just now) that lists the mayors of that town so I will be able to compare with that, too. Not sure I have the right marriage record for my couple, though! But the fun is in the hunt...
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@Ulrich Neitzel , @Robert Seal_1 : the saga continues. I found the 1697 birth record (below) for the Catherine from the 1721 marriage record, and lo and behold it cites her father as Thiebold Christman (vulgö Thiebolds Hannßen Thiebold) dem Jungen Bürger alhier, which explains how her father's name is presented in the later marriage record, less the actual Christmann surname. Do you know what the word 'denzt??' (but what's the loop and dot above??) describing the newborn daughter would be (other nearby records usually use 'der junge Tochter', as well as one 'intigen??' describing the Mayor Jacob Probst-- which should mean presiding because I have a source that shows he was indeed the presiding mayor that year.
Best wishes for 2024 to you both!
Tom
Archives d’Alsace; Archives Départementales du Bas-Rhin; Oberhoffen-sur-Moder - Paroisse protestante (Avant 1793) - Registre de baptêmes mariages sépultures 1671-1737 - 3 E 345/1; https://archives.bas-rhin.fr/detail-document/ETAT-CIVIL-C342-P2-R206944#visio/page:ETAT-CIVIL-C342-P2-R206944-2316156;
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Agreed, @Robert Seal_1 ! I wasn't sure if that loop was for a z or an h. Thanks!
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@Robert Seal_1 , @Ulrich Neitzel : I checked and she is indeed their 3rd daughter, so will go with that. And will attribute that extra loop and dot above the 3 as a flourish or a mystery. Thanks!
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Perfect!
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