1874 Death Record for Johann Abraham Knecht
I think my family has far too many ancestors and cousins named "Johann Abraham Knecht". Please translate enough of this death record to let me know if this Johann Abraham is the spouse of Maria Christina Kratz, her son, or someone else altogether. I'm not convinced this Johann Abraham is my ancestor.
Thanks.
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The image didn't come through. Can you repost, or include a link to the original?
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This death record is for Johann Abraham Knecht, 76 years old, born in Höhscheid, widower of Maria Christina Kratz. The name of his parents were not known to the notifier.
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Thank you @Ulrich Neitzel -- The age (76) suggests this is the Johan Abraham Knecht, baptized 25 May 1797, who married "Anna Catharina Kratz" on 2 Jan 1819. Are there other names, locations, dates, or details in the death record that might help me know if "Maria Christina" might be the same as "Anna Catharina"?
Here is a link to the marriage record for Anna Catharina Kratz. https://dfg-viewer.de/show?id=9&tx_dlf%5Bid%5D=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.landesarchiv-nrw.de%2Fdigitalisate%2FAbt_Rheinland%2FPA_2104%2F%7E023%2F02346%2Fmets.xml&tx_dlf%5Bpage%5D=8
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Hello @Gary Knecht , there is no more info on Maria Christina in this record other than she died in Scheuer before Johan Abraham and was without occupation (gewerbslos).
While she may be identical to Anna Catharina (forenames were not always annoted with care, in particular when the person had died already) she may also be her sister. If Anna Catharina died soon after marriage Johan Abraham may have married the sister, a custom not unusual in former times.
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You may have already obtained Anna Catharina's birth record but in case you haven't, it is here:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS8Y-2LPS?i=195&cat=15184
Sometimes when a person has multiple forenames they can be identified by a different forename on different records. But the birth record doesn't give "Maria" as an additional forename that it is not the reason in this case.
Additional edit:
This record sure seems like the same couple but she is called Johanna Catharina Kratz:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSPX-NS18-H?i=134&cat=15184
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@JohnsonGreg I have no birth or death date for Anna Catharina Kratz, so thanks for offering one. All I have is her name and a marriage record/date. I believe the couple on the marriage record had 3 children (Johann Abraham, Henrietta, and Friederike) for whom I have found birth records. If born in 1786, [Joh]Anna Catharina married at age 32 and had her 3rd child at 41. Not impossible, but I'm not yet convinced.
Her husband would have been 11 years younger. I know Johann Abraham Knecht was baptized 25 May 1797 (see FHL Film 176237; image 299 of 586). I'd prefer to find an Anna Catharina Kratz born closer to that date.
Can you help me figure out locations mentioned on the marriage record for Anna Catharina? I see Hohscheid, Pilghausen, Heinsberg, and Solingen. Any others? What does the record say happened in Heinsberg? This location is totally new to me. And it's more than 50 miles from the other 3 locations, with which I am quite familiar.
Any other clues (names? occupations?) jump out to connect the two records? Or separate them?
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A quick note:
The marriage record for Anna Catharina Kratz and Johann Abraham Knecht that you posted gave Anna Catharina Kratz's birth date as 11 September 1786 and parents names Peter Gotfried Kratz and Anna Maria Erne. These exactly match the birth date and parents of the birth record I posted (except that in the birth record the mothers middle name might be Marien). They are the same person.
Additional Edit: It's Weinsberg rather than Heinsberg. Weinsberg is a part of Höhscheid. All these locations are very close to each other. The record says that Anna Catharina Katz is from Weinsberg, was born in Solingen and her parents are from Weinsberg.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weinsberg_(Solingen)
https://www.meyersgaz.org/place/10826075
By the way, it says here that a Johann Knecht was mayor of Höhscheid in 1754. Maybe an ancestor?
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@JohnsonGreg -- This is excellent information. Thanks. To help me confirm everything I need some help reading the marriage record. Here is my very partial transcription for section 2: Anna Catharina Kratz. Can you correct and add whatever you can easily transcribe (in German--no translation needed at this time). I will combine with other data and may repost:
2) die Anna Catharina Kratz
___ Weinsberg _____ wohnend und, zufolge der von
dem _____ _____ _____ zu Solingen und dem
_____ ____ _____ _____ _____ _____
_____ ___ ___ _____ December _____
___ _____ _____ _____
in Solingen, am _____ September
eintausend _____ _____ _____ _____ geboren in ___ _____
___ Weinsberg _____ ______ _____ _____
Peter Gotfried Kratz und ___ ___ ___ Heidberg (?)
_____ _____Anna Maria Erne.
_____ ____ _____ _____ _____ _____
_____ ____ _____ _____ _____ _____
_____ ____ _____ _____ _____ _____
Beide Hauptcomparenten (Hauptanwesende) übergaben der, zwischen ihnen kirchlich
vollzogenen Ehe nachstehendes Zeugnis des gesetzlichen Pfarrers des Bräutigams (der Braut):
_____ ____ _____ _____ _____ Johann
Abraham Knecht mit dem Anna Katharina Kratz
In _____ ___ Carl Oliger, _____ _____
Weyersberg, Abraham Kratz mit dem Kaltenberg, Abraham
Kayser _____ zu Pilghaus, Daniel Loos, ___ _____
___. Solingen ___ ___ Jenner 1819.
_____ ___ Kämmerling.
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@Gary Knecht . This is what I can decipher. I'm sure I have some mispellings.
2) die Anna Catharina Kratz
von Weinsberg hieselbst wohnend und, zufolge de von
dem herren Burgermeister zu Solingen aus dem
daselbst von dem reformirt Gemeinde???
Taufengister von neunzehnten december
vorigen Jahres gegebenen Auszuges
in Solingen, am eilften September
eintausend sieben hundert sechs und achtzig geboren in dem Ehe des
von Weinsberg hieselbst wohnenden Meister Schmitts
Peter Gotfried Kratz und dem von Heidberg
verstorbenen Anna Maria Erne.
Die Mutter des Bräutigams, und der vater
der Braut waren zugegen und haben ihre
einwilligung in diese Ehe gegeben
Beide Hauptcomparenten (Hauptanwesende) übergaben der, zwischen ihnen kirchlich
vollzogenen Ehe nachstehendes Zeugnis des gesetzlichen Pfarrers des Bräutigams (der Braut):
Heute um sechs uhr kopulirte ich den Johann
Abraham Knecht mit dem Anna Katharina Kratz
in gegenwarts des Carl Oliger, Schmerdtschmitt? von
Weyersberg, Abraham Kratz auf dem Kaltenberg, Abraham
Kayser Gabelmacher zu Pilghaus, Daniel Loos, Meistermacher?
idem. Solingen ? 4tn Jenner 1819.
Pastor Kämmerling.
Heideberg is part of Solingen
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@JohnsonGreg Thank you very much for this transcription. And the links to de.wikipedia.org. I tried several ways of translating your transcription on my computer and then looked back at the marriage record itself. I have a few questions.
First, however, I must remind myself (and you and anyone else reading this) that I started with a death certificate for a Johann Abraham Knecht and wondered which Johann Abraham it might be (father, son, or another family altogether). Spouse's name on death record did not quite match spouse's name on the marriage record. I am fairly confident about the marriage record because the name for the mother of the groom is fairly unique (Johanna Maria Catharina Stamm). The death record did not have this name, so the bride's name on both records is critical to figuring out which Johann Abraham Knecht is in the death record. Hence my request for transcribing the bride's data in the marriage record. So here are a few questions:
What happened on 19 Dec 1818?
What is the meaning of "Weinsberg hieselbst wohnenden Meister Schmitts" before the name of the bride's father, "Peter Gotfried Kratz"? My translation says "Weinsberg resident Master Schmitts" but what is "Meister Schmitts"? Is "Schmitts" part of his name?
Did the marriage take place on 4 Jan 1819? or 19 Dec 1818? or 2 Jan 1819?
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"Schmitt" is an older form of the word "Schmied" (smith). Peter Gotfried Kratz is a "Meßerschmitt" (Messerschmied = cutler). Keep in mind that the area of Solingen hosts the traditional industry of weaponry and cutlery making. As witnesses in this record you can find the "Schwerdschmitt" (sword maker) Carl Oliger, the "Gabelmacher" (fork maker) Abraham Kayser, and the "Meßermacher" (knife maker) Daniel Loos.
Here is the (slightly corrected) paragraph about the bride:
2) die Anna Catharina Kratz am Weinsberg hieselbst wohnend und, zufolge de[s] von dem Herren Bürgermeister zu Solingen aus dem daselbst von der reformirten Gemeinde geführten Taufregister am neunzehnten December vorigen Jahres gegebenen Auszuges in Solingen, am eilften September eintausend sieben hundert sechs und achtzig geboren in der Ehe des am Weinsberg hieselbst wohnenden Meßerschmitts Peter Gotfried Kratz und der am Heidberg verstorbenen Anna Maria Erne. Die Mutter des Bräutigams, und der Vater der Braut waren zugegen und haben ihre Einwilligung in diese Ehe gegeben.
and its translation:
2) Anna Catharina Kratz, living at Weinsberg here and, according to the extract from the baptismal register kept there by the Reformed congregation, given by the mayor of Solingen on 19 December of last year, born in Solingen on 11 September 1786 in the marriage of Peter Gotfried Kratz, cutler, living at Weinsberg here, and Anna Maria Erne, deceased at Heidberg. The mother of the groom and the father of the bride were present and gave their consent to this marriage.
So 19 December 1818 is the date when an extract from the baptismal register was made by the mayor of Solingen. The marriage date is the 2 January 1919 (top of the document).
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@Ulrich Neitzel - Thank you. I think I can now return to the death certificate questions:
- is Maria Christina Kratz the same person as Anna Catharina Kratz (b. 11 Sep 1786 to Peter Gotfried Kratz, cutler, and Anna Maria Erne)?
- or might they be siblings (as speculated above by @JohnsonGreg)
- or might the Johann Abraham Knecht named in the marriage record be different from the Johann Abraham Knecht named in the death record?
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Hi Gary,
It seems none of the three can be ruled out yet. I see there was a Johann Abraham Knecht born in 1816 to a Johann Abraham Knecht and Anna Katharina Kaiser and another Johann Abraham Knecht born in 1819 to a Johann Abraham Knecht and Anna Katharina Kratz.
It strikes me that the older two Johann Abraham Knecht's could be the same person if the first wife and child died between 1816 and 1819, or they could be cousins who both named children Johann Abraham Knecht. I couldn't readily find death records for that period online but they should resolve that question. Your Johann Abraham Knecht, b 1797 would have been only 19 in 1816 which seems very young but possible I suppose.
There is a familysearch ID for Peter Gottfried Kratz, MDGW-CKD, and wife but it is incomplete. It currently lists two sons but no daughters yet. I merged what obvious duplicates I could find for this Peter Gottfried Kratz but found no Maria Christina daughter. But many of the records for that time frame have not been indexed yet so that is likely why that family group has not yet been well developed. It will be necessary to go through the film with Anna Katharina Kratz birth record and work forward and back to find any possible siblings because it isn't indexed yet.
And of course if death records for Anna Katharina Kratz and Maria Christina Kratz can be found those will help tremendously.
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