Why are Dutch surnames attached to individuals prior to the use of the surnames found in various sou
I've been a bit puzzled about Dutch surnames, used in later generations, that are often attached to individuals who lived prior to the time the surname is found in primary sources. For example, my Dutch surname, Winkel, is used in our FamilySearch tree well back into the 1600s, but the first source using Winkel, that I am aware of, is a 1746 christening record. Another example-- from our Voorhees relatives: In 1660, Steven Coerts immigrated to New Amsterdam from Hees, Drenthe, Netherlands. His descendants started adding Van Voorhees to their names. Now, I often see the surname Van Voorhees surname added to people that preceded that generation. If anyone has some thoughts on this, I would appreciate hearing from you.
답변들
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Hi Bob,
yes, I have thoughts on this. Just last night I was working with a patron who had this very issue. The reason that such surnames are attached is because many people do not understand the history of certain types of Dutch (and German and Scandinavian!) surnames. They assume the practice is the same as in the Anglo-Saxon tradition where the same surname is passed on from generation to generation. Many people, even those with Dutch and Scandinavian(!) ancestry do not understand the concept of patronymics. They make the assumption of naming practices based on what they know and then add the name to each generation.
Those 'surnames' that did not exist should be removed from people to whom they are assigned. Perhaps a note should be added somewhere explaining this.
There is this webinar is the FS Learning Center that you could point people to:
https://www.familysearch.org/ask/learningViewer/884
I hope this helps.
Fritz
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Hello Bob,
Check out the database of surnames in the Netherlands on the CBG website.
https://www.cbgfamilienamen.nl/nfb/index.php?taal=eng
For more information about the last name Winkel in the Netherlands,
see the following article (use Google to translate)
Also click on "aantal en verspreiding", for a map with the number and distribution of the Winkel name.
Enjoy,
Mieke
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I don't know how to handle a name that is before the 1811 Dutch law change. So they are born with a patronymic name and then latter the last name is added. When adding to Family Tree how should this be handle? Example birth is Harm Harms and the death is Harm Harms Guikema.
A long time ago I was told by staff at Family Tree to add by Guikema because others could find it. Thank you Kate
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I do not fully agree, Bob,as you are using only winkel as a lead-name.
You will find Winckel and Winckelii in all parts of history.New spellings came along with new rulers and geographical changes. Voorhees is a good example,i think it came into place as the Britisch took over the New Amsterdam area, and made new naming rules mandatory,and as this
became the valid spelling after that time,it is later subsequentely added
to Coertz'es name.Van Voor/hees also means coming from before Hees.
So many names from the new world were grafted with more Brits and local patronimes that it became very confusing.Also the geographical context of patronymes and names was induced with story's attributed to them.I spent years to re-engineer some of them,like Watervliet, or
Schuylkill and the Catskills, Watervliet probably founded and named by
Dutch settlers given the name and the presence of both Flemish and Dutch names in the early days, but historically Britified to a context they could chew better.
Catskills- Cats/kills, kattencreek, catscreek.
Schuylkill, creek used as shelter...a kill is a creek.
The British did not like the Dutch or Flemish story.
Adrie
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This is a very good site, Mieke,i bookmarked it.Thank you
Adrie
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This site is also linked off to the right in blue: - Netherlands Surname database &
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And Brooklyn, too!
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Kate, this is a sticky wicket. Here is my opinion--and there is NO POLICY for FamilyTree with regard to this. Anything that anyone tells you is only their opinion. So, here's mine.
I think we should go by what the person was named at time of birth, which, in this case, would include only their patronym and not their fixed name that they took on as a result of the name decree of 1811. After all, we almost always use only the maiden name of women and not their later-adopted married name. Same principle. Of course, you should include the adopted name in the notes. There is a section for 'Also know as.." section in FT.
It should be noted that just because people were required to adopt a fixed surname did not mean that they went by that or even personally adopted it. In some parts of the country and esp. in the rural areas, people still went by their old naming patterns. There is good evidence for this. They thought that being forced to take names was not only unnecessary, but an intrusion on their culture by bureaucrats in Amsterdam, or even Paris!. These sorts of changes take time.
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Ha, Fritz ,you are aware of the Breukelen-root!
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Of course I am! 😊
And cookie, stoop, yacht, kill (as in a body of water, not murder). coleslaw, bruin, Hoboken, and who can forget Harlem!
And last but not least, Santa Claus.
The list goes on and on. English, esp., American English, is full of Dutch words.
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Yes, and i love it all the way, sometimes, when i'm bored,i simply hoover some names off the map, like say, Van Rensselaerswijk,and i try to re-engineer them back in their historical/geographical setting to harvest the story's that accompany them.Sharpens my skills,keeps my mind fast.
I think Stoop derives from the Dialect Western-Flemisch, the word is spoken then as stuip, but has another meaning in ABN.
Today we write kill with only one L , exeption if used in a historical setting.
Or in a placename.
Adrie
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As an Aside , Bob, we stumbled upon a site today,that contains many names with Hees.
Take a look.
https://hdebie45.deds.nl/Genea/pages/Par-Severijn.htm
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In my opinion, it is caused by software that people use for their own family tree. Once you add a parent, it takes the surname from the child. If sources do not mention that surname for that person, one should correct this and use - for example - patronymics.
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In my family there is a surname Van Driel. The surname shows up in the records in the late 1500's. Before then the line is all patronimic going back into the 1200's in the area around Rotterdam.
I found a record written by a Dutch historian in about 1650 by the name of Matthias Balen. He even called the family Van Driel even though the surname seems to have been produced around 1600.
What I did is go back and restore the patronimic and remove the surname Van Driel.
The ancestor of the family is called the schoonvader of Holland because so many people decend from him. His real name is Doen Beijensz which is the patronimic.
Common problem and I've seen it in other areas of my pedigree. I think its mostly based on lack of knowledge of the origin on the surname.
Ira
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What has to be taken in account, is that the rules for the use of patronymics ,both officialy and non-officially are different for about every language, different per country, and even different per region.In the Netherlands ,Fryslan or Friesland especially still uses
Both patronymics and official names sometimes at the same time.There are clear
geographical shifts.i would not advise removing a lot of things that can come in handy in a search string.
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Yes, absolutely! You are correct. The problem is that every family tree program is designed for the Anglo-Saxon family naming tradition and they do not account for different naming traditions, such as the patronymic one that we are dealing with (and there are other types or patronymics as well. We are only scratching the surface! And other naming practices as well). What we often think of as a universal is not!
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Now that I think about it, here is a really good example of a 'different' naming pattern. Right in the heart of Europe, the Hungarians use their surname first and their given names second, so Nagy Imre would be Imre Nagy for us. Nagy is the surname. The odd thing is, this culture is surrounded by groups that do it exactly the opposite. How did this come about? Who knows? IT was probably brought with the original settlers to that area. It is exactly the same in Japanese. I am not suggesting that Japanese in any way influenced Hungarian, or vice versa, but it does show how certain things can arise in various areas, even independently of each other. And, btw, there are still *other* naming practices.
This leads me to think how people of these other cultures must fell when they enter their families into a family tree program. It's easy to delete a fixed surname and add the patronym. In FamilySearch, for example, it asks for 'First Names' and 'Last Names'. That is wrong! It should be 'Given Names' and 'Surnames.'! But imagine if you had to enter your family names 'backwards' as do the Hungarians and Japanese. It must sting a little.
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Adrie, do you know this great, great book on Dutch influence on American English:
Van der Sijs, Nicoline. Cookies, Coleslaw, and Stoops. The Influence of Dutch on the North American Languages. Amsterdam University Press. 2009.
BTW, This might not seem obvious to you, but it will make sense. A common saying, originally attributed to George Bernard Shaw, states that the United Kingdom and the United States are "two countries separated by a common language". This has some truth to it. American English is filled with words from contact languages that did not enter British English because the British did not come into contact with those languages, and for some reason did not adopt those words. I should add that even in the US, Dutch words are more prevalent in some areas than others. Stoop, for example, is pretty much unknown in the area where I am from. Not many Dutch settlers or descendants of Dutchmen in that area.
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Fritz, i'v heard the saying before,but i had no idea it was from Shaw,i tought it originated Dewey.
I am becoming fully aware of these differences and their sources,and in this optic,i was reading about Pella, and Pella Dutch;very interesting, i also viewed some pictures about it.There are several Dutch mills in my area, one of them is still in working order; and mills flour 1 time a week.Normally he is starting after the winter, next week, but given the corona-crisis and the difficulty to cross the border these days, the operator will probably delay the start for some weeks;but before the summer,i will post a picture,you will love it (Mieke also,-the mill is Dutch)
I will try to find a pdf of that book.Or take it from the library here, they have an ordering service.
My read for today was,Our man , Richard Holbrooke, and coming of age in Samoa,Margaret Meade.
Adrie
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Adrie,
would love to see the photo of the mill. BTW, which town do you live in, if I may ask?
Fritz
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I live in Zelzate, altough i'm born in Assenede,its about 1,5 mile from Sas Van Gent (The Netherlands)
Altough Zelzate is a very polluted town , the countryside in Assenede, and the creeks there are beautiful,but
Holland is the nicest and cleanest.
Adrie
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