Questions about Latin phrase in baptism record
Hello- I would appreciate some help with this 1661 baptism record for Melchior Desch in Mernes, Hesse, Germany.
My transcription: 1661 Melchior filig legitima Sebastiani Desch et Walpurgis coniugum, Levante Melchiorus ??alis Monarderiaensi??, ab eodem in Euctia filiati. modo in Mernes.
1. are the words after Levante Melchiorus his last name? I can't decipher it, nor can I find this word/name in other records for this parish
2. What is the meaning of the phrase ab eodem in Euctia filiati ? Something about on the same day in filial piety? I see this phrase in some of the other baptism records, but not in all.
Thank you
최고의 답변
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On your 1st question:
It appears that immediately following the godparent Melchior's name is the capital letter N which the scribe uses throughout the page to indicate an unknown name. Crammed in after the N is an unknown word I cannot decipher followed by what looks like Monasterianei (Monasteries). The middle "st" in this word appears very similar to the "st" in Sebastian on the line above it. The scribe makes his "d" differently.
Minor note: the 2nd and 3rd words of the record are "filio legitimo" rather than "filig legitima".
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You're welcome, Liz.
I should add that "ecclesia filiali" translates as: daughter church, indicating that this is a branch church of the "mother" or parish church.
FYI: the record begins: Melchior filig legitimg . . .
What looks like the letter "g" is in fact not the letter "g" but a Latin scribal symbol used at the end of words to represent the letters "us".
Replacing the symbol in the above words produces: filius legitimus = legitimate son.
And that's your Latin lesson for today.
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I believe the word after the name of the sponsor is his home place: Salis Monasteriensi, in German: Salmünster (https://www.meyersgaz.org/place/20669068), about 10 km west of Mernes.
Also, I think ab eodem refers to the baptizing priest: "by the same". Note that dates are not given in any of the records.
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Hello Liz,
After further investigation of what is written in the right column, here is what I think is going on.
I got suspicious when I saw the years "1669" and "1670" at the top of the page in the right column when the page that your Melchior is on is for the years 1659-1663.
Now go to the next image in this parish book which is image 02-Taufe-0002. Look at the right column on the right-hand page and you'll see that it's the same as the right column on the first page where your Melchior is.
It appears that your page with Melchior is missing the right column and when this page was microfilmed, the film image picked up the right column from the page on the right-side of the second image where the baptisms are from 1668-1672.
So the right column information on your Melchior page does not apply to your record or to any of the records on the first page. That column actually applies to the records on the third page of the register covering the period 1668-1672.
The best you can do for Melchior's birth/bap. date is 1660 or 1661. Notice however that written above Melchior's name is "1661?"
How's that for complicated?! Hope this helps you out.
Best regards, Robert
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답변들
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Hello Liz,
I can try to assist with your second question:
(2) The phrase is: ab eodem in eccl[es]ia filiali = from/by/on the same in the branch church.
I agree with you that it is most likely referring to the same date as above.
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Thank you both, Robert and JohnsonGreg for looking at this record and providing some insight. I've noticed that the birth records from this parish for this time period don't seem to have a standard format or information provided so these have been a bit challenging to figure out. I really appreciate your help.
Kind Regards
Liz
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Thank you Robert - I do remember you told me about the scribal symbol !
Best
Liz
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Hello again, Liz.
You probably noticed this already: the dates for these records are written in the right margin. I concur with Ulrich that the phrase "ab eodem" is referencing the baptizing priest rather than the date.
Best regards, Robert
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Thank you Ulrich for the name of the monastery. I tried to search for monasteries near Mernes but didn't find this one. Very interesting.
Robert - I somehow didn't realize the info on the right side had dates for these records - thank you for pointing that out. So now I am trying to figure out which info applies to Melchior and what it says. Looks like N3 (or Nota Bene?) in MS in eccl[es]ia filiali Baptizati. Do you thing the date above that phrase be Melchior's baptism date -- Mense Oct die 26? Or is the entry below that for him ? Can't read the month but must be Nov or Dec!
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Hello Robert - thank you for the thorough explanation. I agree that the date column was actually for the next pages. I should have figured that out. I found his burial record, 25 Feb 1718, which says age 58, so he could have been baptized in 1660 or 1661. I think I will use 1661, since directly above his baptism record is written 1661. I think we have squeezed everything we can out of this record! Thank you for your continuing help.
Best Regards
Liz
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You're welcome, Liz. Isn't it surprising how much can be discussed about such a simple record?
Best regards, Robert
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