Zbinden Family

SharonZParker

Here is a marriage record of Jacob Lyb on August 21, 1638 in Guggisberg, Bern, Switzerland. There are some notes written I would appreciate a translation of. Thanks so much

WSeelentag

The combination of Latin and abbreviations makes it difficult - at least for me 🙄. Is it ok with you, if I ask for help on https://www.geneal-forum.com/, i.e. post of your image there ?

Do you have any idea what the modern spelling of this name would be?

On https://www.geneal-forum.com/phpbb/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=69269#p69267 we have a Petter "Lÿb und Gutt" ... merged to "Leibundgut" today ... but no old (pre 1800) "Leib" in Familiennamenbuch today.

SharonZParker

Thanks. I would appreciate your asking for help. The name of Lyb was in Guggisberg and Wahlern back in the 1600's and 1700's, but they must have moved out of the area later on.

WSeelentag

Fine - see https://www.geneal-forum.com/phpbb/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=31936 (and note the date: June ["Junius"], not August).

WSeelentag

Whilst looking for hints I came across an Elsbeth Binggeli, bapt. Guggisberg 27.06.1661 ... is this your data? If it is, you should correct the date: 27 Oct 1661 (not June).

BTW - how do you know she was married (or was connected) to Hans Lyb?

SharonZParker

Thanks fdr the correction on Elsbeth Binggeli's baptism date. On her marriage record, 10 August 1683, to Hans Lyb, it shows her parents were Christen Binggeli and Maria Hirt.

WSeelentag

Marriage record in which parish? I found an entry in Guggisberg - but no parents' names mentioned.

SharonZParker

The information on Elsbeth Binggeli's parents came from a register I have been given.

WSeelentag

OK - but it would be nice (it always is!) to have a source: nothing metioned in this register?

SharonZParker

I have updated Elsbeth Binggeli's with sources. The information came from the Chorgericht Manual and also Billeter's notes. I realize that Billeter was not always correct in putting people together, but with the Chorgericht Manual, I believe I have the right information. Thanks.

WSeelentag

The first comment line reads "Eum Rorbach seq[uitur] J[oannes] Lyb" = "he's followed in Rohrbach by Johannes Lyb". This will likely be the Hans Lyb who marries Elsbeth Binggeli in 1683.

Then follows below "hoc factum ..." = "this fact ..." - the remainder could not be deciphered yet.

Now - reformed church records are usually written in German. In my experience, whenever the is a comment added in Latin (or even Greek) it is about something embarrassing (so common people would not understand it). This may very well be connected to the entry in the Chorgerichtsmanual you mention: have you got a copy of this entry? This might help to decipher the comment in the marriage entry of his parents.

WSeelentag

Sharon - don't misunderstand - this is NOT intended to be a criticism: I have added a note about What is a source - and how should it be referenced? to my general comments on https://community.familysearch.org/de/discussion/comment/463687/#Comment_463687. I hope this will be of general interest for others as well.

SharonZParker

Thanks for the information on citations. I have the chorgerichtsmanual records, but I have not been able to locate this entry in it. What I have is some notes that refer to 15 July 1683 that indicate "Elsi Bingeli the wirt's sister gets proposal from Hans Lyb" and that is from the Chorgerichtsmanual 2. Then Billeter wrote a note on the marriage record "F=daughter of Christen/Maria Hirt", 10 August 1683. Another chorgertichtsmanual 2 entry says "Elsi Bingelli and Hans Lyb married" on 9-21-1683.

WSeelentag

It is difficult to translate these old texts word by word. The following is therefore a "free" translation, hopefully correctly conveying the content:

1683

Friday June 29

President [of the Chorgericht] Alt Statthalter [former governor] Glaus, Assessor [legal assistant] Hans Jacob Wolff predicant [preacher], Seckelmeister [treasurer] Zand, Jacob Guggisperg, Christian Nidegger.

1. Elsi Binggeli, the innkeeper's sister, claims that Hans Lyb has promised to marry her; to prove this she shows the 11 Batzen [a coin] he had given her as confirmation. They had cohabitation since "jahr und tag" [for yonks].

Hans Lyb denies both, the promise of marriage and the cohabitation.

The Beyelerin [Ms. Beyeler] has come forward that he had mentioned that he didn't want to cheat, and that they had been seen having cohabitation.

No conclusion or decision is recorded (see below).

See https://community.familysearch.org/de/discussion/comment/459180/#Comment_459180 on the use of "Alt". 

Unfortunately the digital version of this church record as available on the State Archive Bern site is rather poor: would be nice if a better version (screenshot from familysearch) could be provided.

 1683 [Sep. 21]

10. Hans Lyb and his wife Elsi Binggeli have had cohabitation for yonks. However, he had denied this during the previous session.

For this he was fined 10 Schilling [a coin]; they were spared a higher fine, as they had been fined already previously.

The last sentence might be an indication that the case had also been examined at the Chorgericht in Bern (the superior instance) and the fine had been imposed by them. So the conclusion on June 29 may have been to forward the case to Bern. 

See https://www.numisbern.ch/download/pictures/5f/w28e3ut0553jof0mnbxy1w9q9u16ph/muenzsysteme.pdf for historic coins in canton Bern. 

The complete related pages of the corresponding Chorgerichtsmanual have been posted to https://community.familysearch.org/de/discussion/comment/466326/#Comment_466326. It is further planned to describe the Moral Courts in different cantons under https://community.familysearch.org/de/discussion/127171/general-comments.

SharonZParker

Thank you so much for your very thorough interpretion of this entry. Interesting events. I appreciate your excellent work on this situation.