Trying to figure out if my great grandfathers name is real, or assumed, or anything.
My great grandfathers name was Frank Joseph Keinz or Keincz? He was born in 1889 and came to the U.S, according to my research, in the very early 1900's. His name is a little different on the different records I have found in the U.S. While alive he was supposedly hard to pin down with anything only saying the Germans were after him. In paper records he claims to be Austrian or from Penn. My research and genetic tests place him from Moravia-Silesian area. We used to have one picture of him as a child with an older brother wearing a school uniform from a military school? According to family stories he was supposedly smuggled into the country and told not to come back. When my great grandmother tried to find out more, in the first half of the 20th century, she was warned off and told to stop looking. Is this just a dramatized story or could it be true? Are there people of this last name from that area. Is there any way of knowing, or clues as to where to look?
답변들
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We would love to help direct you with your research. Please tell us what US sources you have found. Do you have immigration records, obits, naturalization, US church records? What religion? Name of spouse and her data? Did they immigrate together?
Betseylee Browning
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Thank you for your response. His name, or at least what I have found, was Frank Joseph Keinz or Keincz or possibly another spelling. He was born in 1889 verbally, according to him, in Austria, Pressburg Germany according to his WWII draft card, US on the 1930 census, Germany on one marriage certificate and Pennsylvania on the other. I no longer have the information that made me believe he was born in Czechoslovakia years ago, but I recently did a genetic ancestry test and it clearly puts him exactly where my research had placed him, on the border of the Czech Republic and Slovakia. He died in Michigan in 1961. I have no records previous to 2 marriage records in Ohio. 1912 and 1926.
I only have the 2 marriage records but my grandmother, Franks daughter-in-law, during conversations said that he was married at least 3 times and spelt his last name differently each time. The two certificates I have are for my great grandmother Pearl Tench married 10 May 1926 in Lucus Ohio, though they both worked and lived in Michigan at that time and we don't know why they went to Ohio, though there is a story she briefly lived in the same apartment complex as his previous wife and was very upset when she found out, which is what brought them to Michigan. My great grandmother was born in 1905 in Georgia, her family goes way back, and until I found the Ohio marriage certificate, we thought that they had met and married there before moving to Michigan. The other marriage certificate I have is to a H. Jean Jacoby, age 22 born in Pennsylvania, married 22 Apr. 1912 in Cuyahoga County Ohio. I have been unable to locate her or either of her listed parents. My family believes my great grandfather may have previously been married, possibly in Pennsylvania but we don't know. I have found no divorce records. On both marriage certificates his parents are listed as John Keinz or Keincz and Frances Holly or Holley but I have never found their names anywhere else. Frank lists them as born in the U.S. on the 1930 census. I know this info. is wrong.
He was supposedly Catholic but according to the family, he had an older sister that may have been married to a Jewish man, my genetic testing does not indicate a Jewish tie. They were the ones, again according to stories, that left him in this country and then went back. We had one picture of him with an older brother in a military uniform, and if I remember right, now, it is the research on that picture that I did more than 20 years ago, when I was just getting interested in genealogy, that may have been part of what sent me in more of an Austria or Czechoslovakia direction. I don't remember finding a specific school, but I remember something about it being a type of school for the children of those in the military and poor royalty. There is also a family story about of there being some kind of land, or property, or a castle, over there, but there is nothing but stories to substantiate that, as far as I know. Though that info. did come from my great grandmother who did, after his death hire a researcher of some kind to try and find out more about him, again, and was again told not to peruse it. This however is all stories and hear say. I have found nothing. Someone at some point in time also found a half sibling of my grandfather, I am not sure from which marriage, but they wanted no contact with us, and said that his father, Frank Joseph Keinz, was not who we thought he was and indicated we didn't want to know. The thing is I do want to know, and they are all dead now, for both good, even if it is something horrible in his past, all parties are gone, and for bad, because I cannot talk to them and try and find out the real stories. Though whether I could trust those stories is another matter. My theory is that he was of some importance family wise, or criminality, or both. Even if he was just a nobody with a twisted mind, I would really like to know more. I know this is a long post, but hopefully I have included enough info. Any additional information or direction would be very useful, though if he changed his name, and/or he is not who we think he is, I may still be at a dead end.
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Is this in a database somewhere online? I will try to find time to look at this today but am teaching a class this morning. Let me know please if I can view this in a database. Is it on FamilySearch?
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Yes. All of my stuff is in Ancestry.com, though I have never tried to share it before. Williams family Tree. Don't worry about the time thing. I have, until the last couple of years, when I finally found the two marriage certificates, been at a road block for most of the 20years I have been trying to sort him out. I just recently found this site and thought I would see if anyone could find out more. Thank you again.
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I found something this morning that might be a big jump, though it would still have involved a bit of centrifuge on my great grandfathers part. I was playing around with some name location variations on Ancestry just now and found a record that is close, though very different at the same time, that could either be him or a possible sibling. Though the marriage certificates say his fathers name was John Keinz or Keincz, my great grandfather always said, to my grandmother anyway, that his fathers name was Frank Joseph Keinz or Joseph Keinz. He never mentioned his mother but the marriage certificate lists her as Francis Holly. If he did not just assume someone else's, or semi assume someone else's identity here is what I found:
Name: Joannes Ignatius Kainz
Gender: Male
Baptism Date: 31 Jul 1892
Baptism Place: Najsv. Trojice, Bratislava, Slovakia
Father: Josephus Kainz
Mother: Francisca Hollik
FHL Film Number: 2439461
😀 😀 😀
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I was going to comment on one of your earlier comments that the Pressburg in the semi-random list of places of origin is the German name of Pozsony = Bratislava. The "Najsv. Trojice" in the baptism place you found is the name of a parish or church in Bratislava ("Most Holy Trinity", according to the FS Catalog entry).
It's most useful if you simply give the link:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KZYS-1YQ
221. Born 27, baptised 31 July.
Child: Joannes Ignatius, male, legitimate
Father: Josephus Kainz, laborer from Poppendorf, Styria
Mother: Francisca Hollik of Pozsony, wife, catholic
Residence: Rayga(?) street 8
Godparents: Susanna Jedinak, single, catholic, laborer, Petöfi street 4
Officiant: the same (Ludovicus Jana-something, assistant parson)
Observations: [midwife:] Albinia Albrecht
Married to Paulina Gullár on 9th Sept. 1919 in Dévény.
Given the remark about his 1919 marriage, it can't be the right guy, but it's possible that it's his brother. It looks like the Joseph for the father's name was likely an error:
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Would you please add me as a guest on your Ancestry Tree. It's a little hard to sort out in paragraph form. I have time right now.
Betseylee
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Thank you for the link. The record I found yesterday on Ancestry did not give me the image to click and I do not speak the language. After I found this information yesterday I posted it to my aunts and uncles on Face Book. They did not know anything more about what they had heard and apparently the research I have been sharing with my mom never made it that far. One aunt did have an additional comment when I mentioned Joannes, and that he would have more likely been known as John in English, and she said that she remembered my grandfather, Frank born in 1927, telling her, as a child, that when he was little his father, Frank, had a brother, John, who would come over and speak only German. So that correlates. Frank Keinz father, My great grandfathers father, was always known in the family by the name Francis Joseph Keinz and I could never find anything on him by that name, when I finally found the out of state marriage certificates, still don't know how my great grandparents met and then why they got married in Ohio when they were from Michigan at the time, his fathers name was listed on both as John. Was this just a record glitch or a purposeful slight misdirection? I wish I could know who that half sibling was so that I could ask them if their comments of," he isn't who you think he is" refers to the fantastical stories or the regular joe named Frank Keinz. If his, my great grand fathers comments about the German's being after him were true, did he change his name because of it, or is his name his name, but he had something to do with the group in Pittsburg, and why did he choose to get married in states different from those in which he actually lived. Did he ever get divorced, being catholic, or did he just change his name, or assumed name, slightly and marry again. We know there were at least 3marriages, my great grand mother being the last. SO many questions, many I know may never be answered. I did get some of my family reinterested though so I guess even if I don't get very far it will still have been of some benefit.
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Sorry this took a bit I just got your message and was trying to figure out how to do this. Do you have an email address or an Ancestry username I can use to add you as a guest to the account?
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I think this solves the Kainz problem.
Marriage: Frank J. Keincz to H. Jean Jacoby
22 April 1912 Cuyahoga Co.,OHIO
Marriage: Frank Keinz to Pearl Tench 10 May 1926
Lucas, OHIO
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9R74-9SNP?i=405&cc=1554443&cat=1766843
Marriage: No.12
Dte: 22 Jan 1871
Groom: Joannes Kainz, laborer, son of Nothburga Kainz, Catholic, born in Poppendorf, 7 Jun 1845, unmarried.
Bride: Francisca Holly, dau of Barbara Holik, Catholic, born 19 Oct 1851
Witnesses: Joannes Gajdusek, laborer, Catholic and Georgius Sklenar, laborer, Catholic
Baptism: No. 532
Born 11 Nov 1871
Child: Carolus Bor(romeo) Georgius
Father: Joannes Kainz, laborer
Mother: Francisca Zetik
Residence: Raga Subar…No. 17
died 7 Oct 1891 St Trinitata
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9R7H-JFF?i=356&cc=1554443
Baptism: No. 429
23 Aug 1874
Child: Ernestus Georgius
Father: Joannes Kainz, laborer in Graz area
Mother: Francisca Holik from here originally, Catholic
Baptism: No. 600
Born 1 Nov 1877
Child: Ernestina Francisca
Father: Joannes Keinz, laborer, Graz in Styria origin
Mother: Francisca Hollig from here
Residence: ?
No. 109 Baptism
21 Feb 1880 Francisca Theresia
Father: Joannes Kainz, laborer from Graz, Styria
Mother: Francisca Holy from here, Catholic
Reisdence: Posony 7 Nickolaigasse
Baptism No. 567
21 Dec born 1882
Maria Anna
Father: Joannes Kainz, laborer from Poppendorf, Graz
Mother: Francisca Holy
Residence: Posony 7 Nickolaigasse
No. 472 Susanna Augusta
Born 30 Aug 1886
Father: Joannes Kainz, laborer in Popendorf
Mother: Francisca Holly from here.
Residence: Posony Mikloseten No. 7
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9R7S-9YFW?i=140&cc=1554443
Baptism: No. 134
Najsv. Trojice, Bratislava, Slovakia RC Records
Born 26 April 1889
Bapt 30 April 1889
Child: Franciscus Joannes
Father: Joannes Kaincz, laber in Poppendorf Stryria
Mother: Francisca Szetik of Vlachowitz, Catholic
Residence: Kayga utcz 8
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9R7S-9TCT?i=42&cc=1554443
Baptism: No. 221
Born 27 July 1892 in Najsv Trojice, Bratislava, Slovakia
Child: Joannes Ignatius
Father: Josephus Kainz, laborer in Poppendorf, Styria
Mother: Francisca Hollik, of Posony
Residence: Kayga utcza No. 8
https://data.matricula-online.eu/en/oesterreich/graz-seckau/gnas/6971/?pg=183
Parish of Gnas, Graz-Seckaus, Steiermark, Austria
Entry No. 120
The 7th of June at 12:30 a.m.born and baptized the same day at 4 p.m.
Village: Poppendorf No. 39
Child: Johann
male, illegitimate, Catholic
Mother: Nothburga Kainz, unmarried, servant at the Hofschoffen. Is known and wishes the name to be registered?
Godparents: Franz X. Sohnuchen? from Hoffschoffen, ? in Poppendorf and his…..wife, Maria.
Francisca Holly (Holy) (Holik)(Szetik) will probably be found in St. Martin parish in Bratislava where they married and had most of their children baptized.
Solved by the information provided on the two marriage applications of Frank Keincz/Keinz.
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Wow, I'd say you did a ton of work! Great job.
Betseylee
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If I think the problem is solvable, I don't like to give up on it.
Glad to help.
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Just wanted to say thank you for your help. Especially with the foreign language searches.
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Do you happen to know what the Hofschoffen refereed to in the on record is? Is it a family, a place, or something different. Breaking it up and piecing it back together I get something having to do with the court system, is that correct?
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You are most welcome.
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I don't know what Hofschoffen refers to.
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