Amsterdam Birth record- Parents Adrianus van Daalen & Maria Strootman

Harleynut97

This is a birth record for Jacob, but where I need some real help is with the parents. This is a line I am absolutely stuck on so I hope you can help with a translation on the parents info

1) Hoping for any birthplaces information of both parents

2) Cant figure out for Adrianus how this name Elia Martens connects

3) Can't figure out for Maria how this name Heden Morgen connects

I guess any information that will help with these parents would be very much appreciated - Carl

(record on right side)

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939D-9ZXH-D?i=470&cc=2020117

A van Helsdingen

The informant and father was Adrianus van Daalen, living on the Lauwerierstraat by the Baangragt [Baangracht] No. 120, canton 5, occupation tapper.

Then the names of the two witnesses are listed. The first was Jan van Tiel, junior, 45, living as above number 124, bread baker boss. The second witness was Elias Martens, 26, living as above No. 98, cooper's [?] assistant.

The mother was Adrianus' wife Maria Strootman, living in his house and with no occupation. The baby was born today in the morning (Heden Morgen) in the 9th hour and was a son named Jacobus.

Usually the father's age is mentioned on these records, but the system of civil registration in the Netherlands was only established a few months earlier in mid 1811 so they hadn't yet introduced a standardized format. You could try and find a later child of this couple. If you want the birthplace for the parent's, I suggest firstly trying to find their marriage. You can find these records either on OpenArch or on the website of the Stadsarchief Amsterdam [Amsterdam City Archives]. Their death records may also state their birthplaces and parents. Some of the post-1811 Amsterdam death records are indexed at FamilySearch, but if theirs is not there's a longer process which I can help you with.

Harleynut97

Thank you for taking the time to do this translation A van Helsdingen. Sadly this Jacob died the following year. This was his death record, but I don't think the parents places of birth were noted.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939D-9D6Y-8?i=479&cc=2020117&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AHWZS-6L6Z

They had another child they named Jacob in 1814, this is his birth record(upper right). Maybe you could look at these and see if you can determine if the parents birth places if given. I have tried to find their marriage records, but have been unsuccessful. I did find a marriage record that listed Maria Strootman marrying a Janes van Dalen in 1807

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939D-9898-Q?i=15&cc=2020117

A van Helsdingen

I think the Jannes van Dalen/Daalen who married Maria Strootman is the same as Adrianus van Daalen.

Have a look at this 1838 marriage of their child: https://www.openarch.nl/nha:ec2aa2cf-f4d9-4570-95ae-d4f6d2dff48a and this one from 1836: https://www.openarch.nl/nha:e10f248f-54c2-4d41-813b-8fe57668a363 He had the same occupation in both records.

One of the witnesses from the 1814 birth you linked to was Anthonij Jongen. An Antonius Jongen was a godparent for the child of Joannes van Daalen in 1810: https://www.openarch.nl/saa:0f4d5fd0-a085-4ed4-b82a-eaeca48b8f9b

And the 1807 marriage gives Janes' address as the Lourierstraat, which is probably a different spelling of Lauwerierstraat.

Based on that I'd say there's a 99% chance Janes/Joannes and Adrianus are the same person. He was probably baptised as Joannes Adrianus.

Harleynut97

Again I really appreciate your help but let me throw out some other considerations.

1) Take a look at this family tree I found. You can see there are a number of children (one of them you referenced when discussing the witness. But what I don't see is any mention of Jacobus.

2) The other thing that bothers me is that on the 2 jacobs birth records... it is clearly noted the name being Adrianus for the father, yet for these children (the ones I checked) it is johannes. Why would they use the name Adrianus for just the Jacobs?

3) I did find an Adrianus baptism for 1781, the father's name is Jacob

I would be curious with your thoughts, thanks again for all your help- Carl

A van Helsdingen

Firstly, I found the death certificate for Janes van Daalen. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939D-9D9N-CR?i=485&wc=MCLH-C38%3A341651501%2C342644001&cc=2020117

The July 1807 marriage record for Janes van Daalen and Maria Strootman gives Janes' parents as Jacobus van Daalen and Arriaantje Hendrica van Zelst. His age was 25, consistent with the August 1781 baptism. The eldest son was traditionally named after the father's father, and that matches with Adrianus' sons Jacobus.

It seems incredibly unlikely for there to have been two brothers Adrianus and Joannes/Janes who both married a women named Maria Strootman. I can only conclude that they were the same person. It is certainly odd to switch between names like this, but all the evidence I've seen points at this. If there were two separate men who both married a Maria Strootman, I'd expect two marriages and two deaths.

The tree you have included a copy of was put together by another user of FS, and they evidently did not know that Adrianus and Janes appear to be the same person.

If you still have doubts, then I suggest methodically looking at his marriage, children's baptisms and births, and the marriages of his children, and noting down his occupations, ages, addresses, and witnesses.

Harleynut97

Yep, I now believe this is the case, as odd as it is, using Adrianus on only the birth records of the 2 Jacobs and not the other children. If you look at the tree I posted, there is a big gap between Adriana Marie and Lambertus births. Both of the Jacobs would have fallen in that gap.

Prior to posting this thread I was thinking maybe Maria Strootman first married Adrianus and maybe then married his brother, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

So would you think that his full name is Adrianus Johannis van Daalen? The marriage record (1807) matches up with the baptism date I found. The death record of Janes also seems to match up.

I really appreciate you helping me solve this mystery. I now have a good idea who both the bride and groom's parents are, so I can continue climbing up the ladder. Thanks again - Carl

A van Helsdingen

A lot of German, and sometimes Dutch male names begin with Jan/Joannes/Johan/Hans followed by a middle name. So Joannes Adrianus would be more likely than Adrianus Joannes. This is a really strange case. Maybe they forgot to write Joannes before Adrianus on his baptism record? I also noticed that his mother was named Ariaantje on his baptism record, but on the marriage record this was crossed out and replaced with Hendrica. Maybe this family had a habit of using nicknames that weren't their official names.

One final thing I thought of was to find a will for Jacob van Daalen and Ariaantje/Hendrica van Zelst/Selst. Unforunately I couldn't find one on OpenArch, but the indexing project of pre-1811 notarial records in Amsterdam has been ongoing for years, so maybe in the future it will be indexed. If the will names their children, that should settle the issue once and for all.

Harleynut97

I haven't explored many notarial records, I'll have to start looking for them. I am pretty sure it was too early for any census type records.

I have found Jacob's and Ariaantje marriage registry (no mention of Hendrica), but no info on parents. She is from Gorinchem and they were married there.

A van Helsdingen

I found Maria Strootman in the 1850 Population Register. It gives a birthdate (2 Oct 1786) that may help you. You're right that there are no earlier censuses.

Harleynut97

I did find Maria Strootmans baptism registry, turns out she was born in 1787. I was wondering when time allows if you could look at the marriage record I found of Maria's parents Lambertus Strootman and Anna Maria Brugbert (Brogbers). Google translate is really failing me. It appears Lambertus was 43 and Maria was 33. I'm hoping it may mention the towns they are from, because I have checked Amsterdam baptism church indexs and can't find either one of their names in the 1738/1748 time periods. Thanks for any help you can offer- Carl

https://archief.amsterdam/indexen/deeds/d6f7c2c7-8668-4eb0-b58b-c9b910a9b34d

A van Helsdingen

Lambertus Strootman is from Groningen, Roman [Catholic], 43, in the Gynesteeg, parents dead, living with/supported by Wouter Heydeman

Maria Brogbers is from Lingen, Roman [Catholic], 33, in the Olveniersburgwal, parents dead, living with/supported by Barent Evers.

Harleynut97

Thank you very much. It's a shame all their parents were dead. But the town names are really helpful.

My first pass I was unable to find Lambertus Strootman's baptism record. It seems like there is a Lingen in Germany, but could not find one in the Netherlands. I'm wondering if maybe it has a different name now.

A van Helsdingen

Lingen is a German town, and I also have an ancestor who moved from Lingen to Amsterdam. It was controlled by the Netherlands until 1702, and I read somewhere that Dutch rather than German was spoken there well into the 1700s.

The Stadsarchief Amsterdam has a good resource for deciphering place names found in Amsterdam records. See: https://www.amsterdam.nl/stadsarchief/themasites/downloads/herkomstonderzoek/ On page 1013, it states that "Lingen" refers to Lingen in Niedersachsen, Germany.

You can access Lingen Catholic records here: https://data.matricula-online.eu/en/deutschland/osnabrueck/lingen-st-bonifatius/

Harleynut97

I've bookmarked the place name link, that will be really helpful. Going to see what I can find at the matricula link. Thanks again-Carl

Harleynut97

I was able to find the baptism record of Anna Maria Brogber(Maria Strootman's mother) in Lingen, thanks to your Matricula link.

Her father was named Hermann, but I would like to get your opinion on how her mothers last name is spelled looks something

like Sanders or Linders or something all together. Here is a snip of the name. Let me know when time allows- Carl

A van Helsdingen

What's the date of the baptism? The image is quite blurry, and I'd like to see the wider context- so I'd like to be able to find the page in Matricula.

Harleynut97

january 10, 1748 (4th entry from the top-left side)

https://data.matricula-online.eu/en/deutschland/osnabrueck/lingen-st-bonifatius/0094/?pg=13

A van Helsdingen

I think the mother's name is Sniders. I'm not 100% sure about the second letter. You could try looking for baptisms of other children of this couple, and their marriage and see how it is written on those records.

Harleynut97

I took a first look for Hermann and his wifes wedding but couldn't find it in lingen. Possible she was from a different town. Thanks for taking a look - Carl