Christopher McGuirk revisited... trying to locate family in Ireland
Some time ago I posted questions regarding Christopher.
Since then we have climbed through all known ( to us) public records here
in the USA.
So far here is what we know:
. Christopher was born on 20 September 1835.
. He migrated here in Feb, of 1851
. He returned to Ireland as a US citizen in 1900.
We have the passenger list for his return ship
. There are apparently no passport records for his
return trip. They weren't required at that point in time.
. He died in 1912. We located his grave. Upon checking
with the Church that manages that cemetery there are
no records regarding the family
. Upon reviewing his marriage records there is no mention
of his father or mother.
, Upon upon reviewing his death certificate it states his father was Charles
and his mother's name is "unknown". We suspect that the relative who
provided the certificate information didn't know Christopher's mother's name.
. Upon checking with direct relatives we have not uncovered any new
information other than Charles was born on or before 1811.
. In all the documents of Christopher that we have reviewed including in
his Civil War military records he states he was from Derry.
. We know that Derry (Londonderry) was a major port of departure for immigrants
bound to the USA.
Questions:
- Would immigrates state the actual county they were from or just say Derry- if that was their departure port.
- We think that his Mother's name was Elizabeth based on Irish naming conventions of children
- If we are certain that he was from County Derry should we search Parish by Parish there ?
- Any suggestions regarding what our next steps might be regarding Irish records ?
Thanking you in advance for any help that you might be able to provide.
Floyd McGuirt
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Have you looked for a 1860 census record for Christopher? He may have been still living with parents or family. Have you found a naturalization record for him?
I think it is best to interpret "Derry" in an American record as referring to County Londonderry. For the year 1835, many (but not all) Catholic parishes kept baptism records. You can search these by name at Ancestry.com and FindMyPast. You can browse the images for free at the website of the National Library of Ireland.
If you can find a Christopher McGuirk baptised/born on exactly 20 Sep 1835 in Co. Londonderry to a Charles, I'd be pretty confident that this was the right family. But given the lack of variety in Irish names there may have been another Christopher McGuirk alive at the same time, so much caution is needed.
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- Thank you for your comments.
- We do need to check the Irish census records. He came over in 1851...was there a census in 1850?
- We have the naturalization record...no info there... He was a veteran of our civill wari it was pro-forma..no info on parents, where he came from in Ireland, etc.
- Regarding baptism records...good point
- To my question..if someone immigrated from a different county would they still say Derry ?
That is, if they departed from Londonderry ?.
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I was referring to the 1860 US Federal Census. There are only a few surviving fragments of the 1841/51 censuses in Ireland and no surviving records at all for 1861-1891.
I don't know whether it is possible that he may have come from another county but left from Derry/Londonderry. But in Ireland counties are well-known and commonly referred to boundaries, almost like states in the US. For him to have lived in another county but said he came from Derry would be like emigrating from Idaho via the airport in Los Angeles and later saying that you were originally from California.
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Thank you for clarifying my understanding regarding the census and the sanity check regarding what people would likely say regarding their point of origin while emigrating.
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@Floy Daun Mackay I agree with @A van Helsdingen .
There were only a small number of ports of departure from Ireland to the US at that time, possibly only three. Derry was one of these. It would be highly improbable that a person leaving from Derry, who lived in another county, would state that they were from Derry. There would just be no sense in that.
Further to that point. Many people only gave the name of the town or townland where they lived, not the name of the county. Thus, in stating "Derry" to the person in Ireland filling in the passenger documentation, he may well have meant County Londonderry/Derry or the City of Londonderry/Derry.
Note: The location Londonderry is the same as the location Derry. Both names are used interchangeably.
Could you post an image of the passenger list showing his entry of Derry so that we can see the full context?
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Thanks for your comments as well.
Could you post an image of the passenger list showing his entry of Derry so that we can see the full context?
??? Here I may have mis-communicated.
The ships lists only require the following information...as you may be aware.
First Name Surname Age Sex Occupation Country Dept Port Ship Manifest Arr. Port Arr. Date
Christopher is shown as from Ireland.
When asked on official documents here where he was from he would write Derry, Ireland
Nothing else. Apparently, that is what he told his children and relatives.
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Within Ireland today, if someone said they were from "Derry", I would tend to read that as stating that they were from the city of Derry.
I would expect a person to say that they were from "County Derry" if they hailed from somewhere in the county outside Derry city.
That's how it would be read today. I cant comment on how the language would be read 100+ years ago.
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I would add an important caveat to that: They would say Derry if they were Catholic or had Nationalist political leanings. They would say Londonderry if they were Protestant/Unionist.
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AvH
Understood ! I have traveled in Ireland and witnessed that difference.
In the case of Christopher and his family , they were all Catholic in the 1800s.
No where did they use Londonderry in their official documents.
FMM
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There are almost no records listed on Rootsireland Catholic Churches before 1841. See link for all available Church Records for Co. Derry
https://rootsireland.ie/derry/online-sources.php#catholic
Off the 27 Parishes listed only 3 have records before 1835.
Looking for births from 1830 to 1850 in Co. Derry
The first listing on McGuirk and variants in Co. Derry lists 1 from 1836 all the rest start from 1841.
Tim
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